Photo Recon Missions - BLARG! I've had it!

mookiemookie · 09-14-07, 08:46 PM

It seems like these are the friggin BANE OF MY EXISTENCE. I cannot for the life of me sneak in anywhere near the harbor. I'm using TM 1.6, and I really like the pumped up AI, but I cannot, for the life of me, sneak into a harbor. I run at PD and rigged for silent, but they seem to nail me everytime.

How do you all sneak into harbors? I try to stick to the deepest water I can, but those parts seem to be the most patrolled. Is there a trick to it that I'm just missing here?

For that matter, how accurate is being issued a mission like reconning Osaka harbor, really? I've seen the picture of Mt. Fuji taken through the scope, and I've heard the story about the boat being so close to shore that they saw the racetrack, and Fluckey's adventures in train demolition, but was this really the norm?

NefariousKoel · 09-14-07, 08:55 PM

I think the hydrophones on AI DDs are too jacked up and the active sonar is a bit wimpy. Dunno.. experimenting with the settings lately myself.

One big hangup I have is that the thermocline layer is like a brick wall. The way it's set up, the value doesn't really portray it properly where distance from the noise source is the huge factor.

Of course, I probably have a different outlook on the whole sonar situation compared to others, but I still think it needs some mod work.

tater · 09-14-07, 09:06 PM

When I release an updated campaign that is TM compatible, it shouldn't be a problem. I've long since eliminated the harbor missions (all of them) in my own campaign, they are silly.

NefariousKoel · 09-14-07, 09:09 PM

I kinda like the challenge.

Hey Tater, you think you could have some in for maybe some minor ports or anchorages? It'd be a good balance that way and not quite so crazy. The variety is definitely good on occasion too.

tater · 09-14-07, 10:11 PM

Well, my plan was to eliminate all of them in Japan (in a TM version I might have to make sure there is something near ole BP). Others might exist, but with different missions.

Perhaps mining---the reality is that US boats just didn't do it.

The missions are separate from the campaign in most ways, so a version with all new missions (and all the unrealistic ones expunged) would be my baseline, but it'd be easy enough to leave a few in as an optional install I guess.

tater

-Pv- · 09-14-07, 11:12 PM

In my current campaign I'm two years into it and only one photo mission so far and two infiltrations. Indeed they are the most difficult missions, but I find myself as a result of this discussion thinking about what the designers were trying to do. One uniqueness of SH4 over 3 is the stronger emphasis on shallow water operations where bases had to be maintained on small islands so forces could have supply and repair over the vast ocean. Besides chasing small convoys around these islands, what are we do do? By and large, the nature of the enemy, small convoys poorly escorted leaves room for challenge. Obviously too many of harbor expoits makes the game seem difficult, perhaps tedious, but once in a while I find myself getting quite anxious to try and fulfill one of the shallow harbor missions. Difficult but not impossible. They also require a large dedication to a block of time. Something many do not have patience for in our FPS generation.

As Tater pointed out, you drop off/pick up an infiltration, or supplies, take pictures, or lay mines. What else is there with any historical basis? Perhaps picking up McArthur and getting him to Austrailia safe. Sink a specific docked target you might have to lie in wait for. Not much to work with in that vain.

One thing I got endless entertainment from with Silent Service was hanging out around a port and watching merchants accumulate from different directions and over time. They would gather at the port, organize, then head out under escort. Pure genious coding. I could do those expoits for years.
-Pv-

tater · 09-15-07, 12:25 AM

On the plus side, I've figured out how to do exfiltration missions

tater

mookiemookie · 09-15-07, 01:00 AM

Pv, you're right. I really appreciate the variety factor that the developers were going for in terms of missions. That was one of my biggest gripes about SH3...the sameness of "patrol grid XXXX for 24 hours". I like how they addressed it, but I don't really agree with the WAY they addressed it. In other words, the idea is great, but the execution of such leaves a bit to be desired.

tater, you are the man, the myth and the legend. I posted this thread kind of knowing that you'd have your two cents to put in, and that's what I was fishing for. Did you ever get anywhere with your "create an invisible ship to lock on to in order to make small island shore defense recon" mission feasable? That, to me, seems like a more realistic use of the photo recon mission.

But it's good to hear that you've been working on things. I really do appreciate your devotion to realism. I think your improved campaign layers are indeed one of the "must have" mods...but enough of me fawning.

I turned around and went home after I got the "recon Osaka harbor" mission. I had already completed two patrol missions, successfully with about 13,000 tons sunk and 45 days out, so I figured that was good enough. I guess the game agreed with me, as I was awarded a Bronze Star.

Eagerly awaiting your fixes to these missions. Keep up the good work!

Fat Bhoy Tim · 09-15-07, 01:52 AM

I wouldn't mind the littoral missions (and I'll be honest I like the challenge), it it wasn't for the fact the AI conveniently knows to ping if you're within their cone. Could be a stationary hole in the water, but you'll be found.

mrbeast · 09-15-07, 08:03 AM

Could the harbour recon missions have happened in RL, but instead of taking photos the capatain simply observed what ships were in port, made a list and then transmitted his info as a coded message? The problem with the photo recon is; whats the point of taking photos of a harbour if the boat taking the pictures could be out on patrol for another month? Any intelligence would be hopelessly out of date!

tater · 09-15-07, 08:28 AM

There is a test mission in the current campaign version, course you have to happen to get it (beach photography). None of the exfiltration is in yet. I'm still testing it.

I can't see any reason to observe. Course if subs could have gone into the inland sea and sunk the IJN at anchor, they would have. Later in the war, such activity would have been dangerous not just because of the japanese, but because of mines dropped by the USAAF. B-29s dropped a LOT of mines in japanese waters.

The agent insertions... also pretty bogus. Coastwatchers, yes. Philipines, not unlikely. Even China could be plausible. Japan? No.

Real subs would be placed in a screening line in the ocean, not brown water. I think it would make sense to eliminate the requirement to be surfaced to transmit a report, or at least up the range for contact reports. 4500 yards is suicidally close to surface and crank up the radio.

mrbeast · 09-15-07, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Real subs would be placed in a screening line in the ocean, not brown water. I think it would make sense to eliminate the requirement to be surfaced to transmit a report, or at least up the range for contact reports. 4500 yards is suicidally close to surface and crank up the radio.

Yeah sending contact reports is a ball ache. I'm forever clicking on 'send contact report' and it never does until a DD or DE is just about to open fire on me!

Would be good if that could be fixed.

hyperion2206 · 09-15-07, 09:24 AM

It would be cool if you could sent a contact report when you detect a convoy/TF by radar only. Didn't the Archerfish sent a contact report after picking up the Shinano on radar only?:hmm:

Snuffy · 09-15-07, 10:18 AM

My current mission, (vanilla, 1.3, and TM 1.6+), I'm 2/3rds of the way into a bay where I am given a mission to photo stuff.

It's been a slow go, 1/3 ahead 60 feet or better submerged, and silent running. It's a long bay I have about 5/8ths of the batteries left. I've managed to slip past the initial patrol DD and have been shadowing a small gun boat up the bay.

It's also about 0200 and the sun will be up soon and I'm afraid I'm gonna have to hit bottom and wait it out. I can only hope that I have enough battery to get out of there when I'm done.

But I don't mind the missions, and as has been said they are a challenge.

Sailor Steve · 09-15-07, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

It seems like these are the friggin BANE OF MY EXISTENCE. I cannot for the life of me sneak in anywhere near the harbor.

Sounds just like my experiences with SH1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

That was one of my biggest gripes about SH3...the sameness of "patrol grid XXXX for 24 hours". I like how they addressed it, but I don't really agree with the WAY they addressed it. In other words, the idea is great, but the execution of such leaves a bit to be desired.

Originally they were going to have a completely scripted campaign, with every patrol being a mission of some sort or another. After massive community complaints they changed it to an 'AOD-type' dynamic campaign. the 'Patrol grid XXXX' was what they had left over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbeast

The problem with the photo recon is; whats the point of taking photos of a harbour if the boat taking the pictures could be out on patrol for another month? Any intelligence would be hopelessly out of date!

I never thought of that. Good point.

09-14-07, 08:46 PM	#1
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	Photo Recon Missions - BLARG! I've had it! It seems like these are the friggin BANE OF MY EXISTENCE. I cannot for the life of me sneak in anywhere near the harbor. I'm using TM 1.6, and I really like the pumped up AI, but I cannot, for the life of me, sneak into a harbor. I run at PD and rigged for silent, but they seem to nail me everytime. How do you all sneak into harbors? I try to stick to the deepest water I can, but those parts seem to be the most patrolled. Is there a trick to it that I'm just missing here? For that matter, how accurate is being issued a mission like reconning Osaka harbor, really? I've seen the picture of Mt. Fuji taken through the scope, and I've heard the story about the boat being so close to shore that they saw the racetrack, and Fluckey's adventures in train demolition, but was this really the norm? __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

09-14-07, 08:55 PM	#2
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I think the hydrophones on AI DDs are too jacked up and the active sonar is a bit wimpy. Dunno.. experimenting with the settings lately myself. One big hangup I have is that the thermocline layer is like a brick wall. The way it's set up, the value doesn't really portray it properly where distance from the noise source is the huge factor. Of course, I probably have a different outlook on the whole sonar situation compared to others, but I still think it needs some mod work. __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

09-14-07, 09:09 PM	#4
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I kinda like the challenge. Hey Tater, you think you could have some in for maybe some minor ports or anchorages? It'd be a good balance that way and not quite so crazy. The variety is definitely good on occasion too. __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

09-15-07, 01:00 AM	#8
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	Pv, you're right. I really appreciate the variety factor that the developers were going for in terms of missions. That was one of my biggest gripes about SH3...the sameness of "patrol grid XXXX for 24 hours". I like how they addressed it, but I don't really agree with the WAY they addressed it. In other words, the idea is great, but the execution of such leaves a bit to be desired. tater, you are the man, the myth and the legend. I posted this thread kind of knowing that you'd have your two cents to put in, and that's what I was fishing for. Did you ever get anywhere with your "create an invisible ship to lock on to in order to make small island shore defense recon" mission feasable? That, to me, seems like a more realistic use of the photo recon mission. But it's good to hear that you've been working on things. I really do appreciate your devotion to realism. I think your improved campaign layers are indeed one of the "must have" mods...but enough of me fawning. I turned around and went home after I got the "recon Osaka harbor" mission. I had already completed two patrol missions, successfully with about 13,000 tons sunk and 45 days out, so I figured that was good enough. I guess the game agreed with me, as I was awarded a Bronze Star. Eagerly awaiting your fixes to these missions. Keep up the good work! __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

09-15-07, 01:52 AM	#9
Fat Bhoy Tim Watch Officer Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Abu Dhabi Posts: 338 Downloads: 46 Uploads: 0	I wouldn't mind the littoral missions (and I'll be honest I like the challenge), it it wasn't for the fact the AI conveniently knows to ping if you're within their cone. Could be a stationary hole in the water, but you'll be found. __________________ Some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some will always be total gits.

09-14-07, 09:06 PM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	When I release an updated campaign that is TM compatible, it shouldn't be a problem. I've long since eliminated the harbor missions (all of them) in my own campaign, they are silly.

09-14-07, 10:11 PM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Well, my plan was to eliminate all of them in Japan (in a TM version I might have to make sure there is something near ole BP). Others might exist, but with different missions. Perhaps mining---the reality is that US boats just didn't do it. The missions are separate from the campaign in most ways, so a version with all new missions (and all the unrealistic ones expunged) would be my baseline, but it'd be easy enough to leave a few in as an optional install I guess. tater

09-14-07, 11:12 PM	#6
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	In my current campaign I'm two years into it and only one photo mission so far and two infiltrations. Indeed they are the most difficult missions, but I find myself as a result of this discussion thinking about what the designers were trying to do. One uniqueness of SH4 over 3 is the stronger emphasis on shallow water operations where bases had to be maintained on small islands so forces could have supply and repair over the vast ocean. Besides chasing small convoys around these islands, what are we do do? By and large, the nature of the enemy, small convoys poorly escorted leaves room for challenge. Obviously too many of harbor expoits makes the game seem difficult, perhaps tedious, but once in a while I find myself getting quite anxious to try and fulfill one of the shallow harbor missions. Difficult but not impossible. They also require a large dedication to a block of time. Something many do not have patience for in our FPS generation. As Tater pointed out, you drop off/pick up an infiltration, or supplies, take pictures, or lay mines. What else is there with any historical basis? Perhaps picking up McArthur and getting him to Austrailia safe. Sink a specific docked target you might have to lie in wait for. Not much to work with in that vain. One thing I got endless entertainment from with Silent Service was hanging out around a port and watching merchants accumulate from different directions and over time. They would gather at the port, organize, then head out under escort. Pure genious coding. I could do those expoits for years. -Pv-

09-15-07, 12:25 AM	#7
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	On the plus side, I've figured out how to do exfiltration missions tater

09-15-07, 08:03 AM	#10
mrbeast Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bolton, UK Posts: 1,236 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Could the harbour recon missions have happened in RL, but instead of taking photos the capatain simply observed what ships were in port, made a list and then transmitted his info as a coded message? The problem with the photo recon is; whats the point of taking photos of a harbour if the boat taking the pictures could be out on patrol for another month? Any intelligence would be hopelessly out of date!

09-15-07, 08:28 AM	#11
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	There is a test mission in the current campaign version, course you have to happen to get it (beach photography). None of the exfiltration is in yet. I'm still testing it. I can't see any reason to observe. Course if subs could have gone into the inland sea and sunk the IJN at anchor, they would have. Later in the war, such activity would have been dangerous not just because of the japanese, but because of mines dropped by the USAAF. B-29s dropped a LOT of mines in japanese waters. The agent insertions... also pretty bogus. Coastwatchers, yes. Philipines, not unlikely. Even China could be plausible. Japan? No. Real subs would be placed in a screening line in the ocean, not brown water. I think it would make sense to eliminate the requirement to be surfaced to transmit a report, or at least up the range for contact reports. 4500 yards is suicidally close to surface and crank up the radio.

09-15-07, 09:24 AM	#13
hyperion2206 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cologne, Germany Posts: 1,227 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	It would be cool if you could sent a contact report when you detect a convoy/TF by radar only. Didn't the Archerfish sent a contact report after picking up the Shinano on radar only?:hmm: __________________ Career of Captain Jack Shaftoe:

09-15-07, 10:18 AM	#14
Snuffy XO Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 420 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	My current mission, (vanilla, 1.3, and TM 1.6+), I'm 2/3rds of the way into a bay where I am given a mission to photo stuff. It's been a slow go, 1/3 ahead 60 feet or better submerged, and silent running. It's a long bay I have about 5/8ths of the batteries left. I've managed to slip past the initial patrol DD and have been shadowing a small gun boat up the bay. It's also about 0200 and the sun will be up soon and I'm afraid I'm gonna have to hit bottom and wait it out. I can only hope that I have enough battery to get out of there when I'm done. But I don't mind the missions, and as has been said they are a challenge. __________________ ----------------- Snuffy!