Harbor raids - A true story?

[tater]

A certain mod ducimus is familiar with has transient traffic at anchor at Wewak Try there.

tater

[Ducimus]

Photo was taken by the USS trigger.

At this point all i see is someone hyping uboats ( as if they needed more hype) and downplaying the accomplishments of US subs by emphasizing Gunther Priens penetration of Skapa flow, and minimalizing the areas US subs penetrated. You have a picture of a ship, at anchor with the F'ing jungle behind it being torpedod, for christ sakes. For all intents in purposes, its a damn harbor, SHips go their, they lower their anchors, and load or unload freight.

And regardless of how you want to define what a damn harbor is, fact remains, that "harbor raiding" however you want to define it, was predominatly a pacific theater activty if one was to compare sub theaters. I dont recall of hearing stories of german uboats accidently torpedoing piers and sinking busses or cranes.
<-- lower right hand corner

In sum...... whatever.

Yes im pissed off today, for reasons not related to SH4, but im all to eager to vent it seems.

[nematode]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

At this point all i see is someone hyping uboats ( as if they needed more hype) and downplaying the accomplishments of US subs

As far as hyping the Uboats and knocking the USA, that didn't come from me, those are your assumptions.

You probably don't know anything about me, which isn't surprising with my approx 40 post count. Maybe you think that means I'm "little people" and am a suitable target for dismissal or something.

A little about me, I know the history very very well. I post seldomly, but when I do, it's information and not hype....or it's data on a bugfix, like the merchant ship slowdown, which was added to patch 1.3. You can find my name in the SH4 credits. I'm someone who, like you, has made a contribution to the SH4 community.

I don't care about politics or opinion about who rocked and who sucked. I don't come in here to flag wave or flag burn. That's not what I do. A sober assessment of my posts should make that crystal clear to anyone who isn't looking to pick a fight.

On the other hand, I don't cuddle up to people. You'll never find me yes-manning one of your posts. But, I continue to be polite and respectful, no matter how much I get dumped on, up to the point where, like you, I simply just go away.

Speaking of which, you're doing the same unfair things to me in that post that you've said in the past were done to you to cause you to leave.

Why not accord me the same respect that you would have wanted when you felt screwed over on this board?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by nematode

SH4 gives one the impression that US subs snuck up miles of estuary deep into Japanese harbors to pick off ships at the dock, like in Tokyo Bay or the Inland Sea, and nothing like that ever happened. But, it makes for a great story.

Not only did it happen, but it happened in the most spectacular fashion with USS Barb (Fluckey) sneaking through miles of narrow, sampan and mine-infested waters, less than 100' and most of the time less than 50' deep, to enter Namkwan Harbor on 23 January, 1945. For this attack, he became the only living sub commander to be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. When you make blanket statements about US Sub conduct in WWII, it is almost obligatory to make an exception for Capt Eugene Fluckey! Otherwise you risk being in error most of the time.

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Photo was taken by the USS trigger.

At this point all i see is someone hyping uboats ( as if they needed more hype) and downplaying the accomplishments of US subs by emphasizing Gunther Priens penetration of Skapa flow, and minimalizing the areas US subs penetrated. You have a picture of a ship, at anchor with the F'ing jungle behind it being torpedod, for christ sakes. For all intents in purposes, its a damn harbor, SHips go their, they lower their anchors, and load or unload freight.

And regardless of how you want to define what a damn harbor is, fact remains, that "harbor raiding" however you want to define it, was predominatly a pacific theater activty if one was to compare sub theaters. I dont recall of hearing stories of german uboats accidently torpedoing piers and sinking busses or cranes.
<-- lower right hand corner

In sum...... whatever.

Yes im pissed off today, for reasons not related to SH4, but im all to eager to vent it seems.

I think the predominant reason behind the trend is superior ASW and
harbour defences in the Atlantic vs. the Pacific

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Photo was taken by the USS trigger.

At this point all i see is someone hyping uboats ( as if they needed more hype) and downplaying the accomplishments of US subs by emphasizing Gunther Priens penetration of Skapa flow, and minimalizing the areas US subs penetrated. You have a picture of a ship, at anchor with the F'ing jungle behind it being torpedod, for christ sakes. For all intents in purposes, its a damn harbor, SHips go their, they lower their anchors, and load or unload freight.

And regardless of how you want to define what a damn harbor is, fact remains, that "harbor raiding" however you want to define it, was predominatly a pacific theater activty if one was to compare sub theaters. I dont recall of hearing stories of german uboats accidently torpedoing piers and sinking busses or cranes.
<-- lower right hand corner

In sum...... whatever.

Yes im pissed off today, for reasons not related to SH4, but im all to eager to vent it seems.

A huge bay area,outside a port/harbor where vessels stay on anchorage to load/unload goods, is not by any means a harbor.

Harbor is a protected place,from the open sea and waves, with a small number of narrow and controled entries (1,2,3,4 but not a wide open of 33 or even 12 miles),with a green and red light to guide you in and out and also with piers and a swallow depth (usually between 15-20 meters).

Bay entry of 12 miles is approximately 20kms and of course is not considered to be a harbor/port.

I know these because my father is a merchant captain and I have studied a lot of his books.

Such places like the ones you described, with huge openings,deep with anchored ships are not called harbors.

They are called anchorages(rada as we called them here in Greece).

Piraeus is a port (the biggest port in Greece).The huge area outside south east of the port where large vessels go and stay in anchor, is called anchorage (rada).

Harbor raid you would have if the Jap subs/midgets have succeeded in entering the Pearl Harbor. In that sense it is more common to have harbor raids in Europe/Atlantic where you have more traditional ports/harbors.

This also why you had antisubmarine nets.In a harbor you have a narrow entry,thus you can build an antisubmarine net to protect your vessels inside.

In an anchorage,inside a huge bay, with an opening into the ocean of 12miles and a depth of 100meters of more, you can not have antisubmarine nets,you can not protect and control it.

[joea]

Thanks for the explanation Dude.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Dude

Such places like the ones you described, with huge openings,deep with anchored ships are not called harbors.

They are called anchorages(rada as we called them here in Greece).

Piraeus is a port (the biggest port in Greece).The huge area outside south east of the port where large vessels go and stay in anchor, is called anchorage (rada).

Harbor raid you would have if the Jap subs/midgets have succeeded in entering the Pearl Harbor. In that sense it is more common to have harbor raids in Europe/Atlantic where you have more traditional ports/harbors.

This also why you had antisubmarine nets.In a harbor you have a narrow entry,thus you can build an antisubmarine net to protect your vessels inside.

In an anchorage,inside a huge bay, with an opening into the ocean of 12miles and a depth of 100meters of more, you can not have antisubmarine nets,you can not protect and control it.

You're still ignoring Gene Fluckey's raid that garnered him the medal of honor. The words never and only are completely exclusive and unless you can explain away Fluckey's well-documented raid you cannot say American subs raided only "anchorages" however they are defined. And in the face of that, all definitions of "anchorage" are irrelevant distractions not contributing to resolution of the issue at hand. After all, if we treated Gunther Prein (stupid American keyboard!) that way, the U-Boats never raided any harbors. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's play on a level field here.

Do we agree to have one discard for each argument, picked by the opposing side?

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

You're still ignoring Gene Fluckey's raid that garnered him the medal of honor. The words never and only are completely exclusive and unless you can explain away Fluckey's well-documented raid you cannot say American subs raided only "anchorages" however they are defined. And in the face of that, all definitions of "anchorage" are irrelevant distractions not contributing to resolution of the issue at hand. After all, if we treated Gunther Prein (stupid American keyboard!) that way, the U-Boats never raided any harbors. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's play on a level field here.

Do we agree to have one discard for each argument, picked by the opposing side?

I have never said that nobody did it.All I tried to do was explain the technical difference between harbor and anchorage and why IMOHO it is easier to attack vessels in anchorage and more difficult inside a port.

I do not know American history since I am not an American so I can not comment about this captain's achievements.

I just believe it is easier to have harbor raids in European-English ports in Atlantic (not that it really happened apart from Scapa Flow) than in Japan-Pacific fleet.

[Sailor Steve]

I think at this point a distinction should be made between harbor raids and raiding a major enemy naval base.

On the U.S. side of the argument, they made more than a few harbor raids, but those could be considered easier than the Scapa Flow raid.

On the German side, the Scapa Flow raid was a major accomplishment, but it was planned by Donitz himself and was only done once. Allied harbors were difficult to get into, and very well protected.

On the U.S. side, while the Japanese were moving ships into and out of relatively unprotected areas, this wasn't always so (just like their convoys) - witness the above-described raid by Fluckey.

Bottom line: SH4 raids should on the whole be easier (but only barely).

Bottom line #2: good submarine skippers, like good fighter pilots, were talented, tough, arrogant and took some extreme chances, and sometimes even made them work.

[nematode]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Not only did it happen, but it happened in the most spectacular fashion with USS Barb (Fluckey) sneaking through miles of narrow, sampan and mine-infested waters, less than 100' and most of the time less than 50' deep, to enter Namkwan Harbor on 23 January, 1945.

Thanks for that info RR. What I show for Fluckey on 23-Jan-1945 is Taikyo Maru a 5244GRT freighter sunk at 27-04N, 120-07E which is 5000 yards off the coast of China in the East China Sea, from a group of 30 anchored ships spaced 500 yards apart in 3 columns, making for a mass of shipping some 1500 yards deep and some 5000 yards long.

Please correct my data if it's wrong. If my data is accurate, I'm sorry, but that's an attack on an open water anchorage, and not a harbor. That conclusion does not take away from the valor of Fluckey's actions. It's merely a result from an honest attempt at learning a truth about history.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

For this attack, he became the only living sub commander to be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. When you make blanket statements about US Sub conduct in WWII, it is almost obligatory to make an exception for Capt Eugene Fluckey! Otherwise you risk being in error most of the time.

Perhaps you mean Fluckey was the first living sub skipper MoH recipient. O'Kane, Street, and Ramage were also alive at the time they were awarded the MoH.

[Rockin Robbins]

When I get home I'll scan and publish Fluckey's hand-drawn map of the approach and harbor. If it's an open harbor, it's after miles of shallow water with land all around and extensive minefields. It certainly fills the qualification of shallow water, restricted and guarded ingress and egress, minefields, etc. It sure isn't an open deep water anchorage. And he sunk a lot more than one ship there, whether he got official credit or not. One was an ammunition ship that blew shrapnel all over the harbor. Fluckey was a surface craft on this foray, but his way out was thoughtfully lighted by a destroyer, who set the sampan fleet on fire trying to hit Fluckey. You know, if you're part of a robbery in which someone is killed, you're guilty of murder. Then Fluckey should have been given credit for all the sampans destroyed by the destoyer.

Hey, can you find out of the train Fluckey sank landed in the water and whether he got any tonnage from that?:rotfl: I'm sure he tried on a technicality. Fluckey wasn't shy in trying to get credit for his crew.

You're right on the MOH. Typing quicker than the brain can control. lol

Still haven't received word on whether we agree that each side gets to pick a discard for the other. We pick Prein. Gone!

Actually, though, Donitz would have just picked someone else for the job and they most likely would have pulled it off too. The key to both the Fluckey raid and Prein's was that they were so audacious that the enemy never dreamed they were possible, combined with a careful weighing of the risks involved, and once the risk was managable, not eliminated, they proceeded.

[Rockin Robbins]

Upon further review, the officials have decided that Fluckey's raid, while conducted in water 60' or less in depth, in uncharted waters with rocks all poised to rip the bottom out of the sub, and with three frigates guarding several (Fluckey says 24) anchored ships, and with extensive fleets of junks and sampans making the run quite exciting, this in no way conforms to the Mediterranean definition of a harbor. Granted, Fluckey had to run six or seven miles just to get to the 10 fathom curve, then an additional ten to get to the 20 fathom curve where he could dive, and he was pursued by at least one of the frigates during that egress, this is quite a different position than that found in the Mediterranean or Atlantic theater.

I don't know which is really more difficult, this one with miles of shallow uncharted, rock infested water, or a precisely known but scientifically defended harbor. Obviously both were penetrated successfully by submarines, proving that the submarine was equal to whatever challenges existed in either theater of war.



Fluckey's account in "Thunder Below" in the chapter on Barb's 11th war patrol (!) is one of the most exiting accounts by either Americans or Germans in WWII, and surely comes close to Prein's conquest of Scapa Flow, minus the glamor targets and guns from capital ships waiting to vaporize the little U-Boat. Fluckey's battle was much more evenly matched, in spite of his handicap from all the shallow water and sampans. It is also safe to say that the moral effect of Prein's attack on the British was far in excess of the effect of Fluckey's attack on the Japanese.