the SH2 modelling tool..?

[CB..]

i agree...i very much appreciated the novelty of the hike in graphics that came with SH3...and did play it to death...working on variuos mods and gameplay twists to see where i could take it...but the thing never really hit the spot atmosphere wise...all the elements i really enjoyed from SH2 were in fact the very same elements they decided to leave out of SH3 and 4...so inspite of the dynamic campaign it left me the feeling that i was actually allways "missing" something gameplay wise....


but i re-installed SH2 the other day and blam here i am wrestling with the mission writing conundrums and implementing wolfpacks (last patrol the wolfpacks had a bit of a happy time and decemated one particular convoy getting 6 ships in rapid succesion...i on the other hand came home with two lol)...i've re written my campaign generator (based again on rossbachs original one) and there we are

active wolfpacks giving contact reports and making serious attacks on shipping
changing weather (thanks Col777) with accurate weather reports (radio messages)
dynamic radio messages relating ships arriving in ports (spy intell et al)
dynamic reports of possible convoy routes
AI subs performing genuine picket line searchs and reporting their sightings
british subs doing the same on you the player.. calling in airstrikes etc(dynamicaly and randomly again of course..)

and that's just the obvious stuff...
SH2 can still murder SH3/4 etc for nuts and bolts immersion
and of course PA has Floaters dynamic campaign generator allso

so in the end all Sh3/4 had to actualy offer was the novelty of "better" graphics...the 3d sub interiors are nice of course but it's not enough

[horsa]

the thing never really hit the spot atmosphere wise...all the elements i really enjoyed from SH2 were in fact the very same elements they decided to leave out of SH3 and 4

That's interesting CB. What would you highlight as the missing elements ? I'm interested from a gameplay perspective because I very rarely actually play a sim/game - much prefer looking at the design and tinkering under the bonnet.

You are right about the atmosphere, but I can't put my finger on why I prefer the atmosphere of SH2 - unless it's because it reminds me of the days of "Village Subsim" and deep down that's what I prefered, rather than the "City Subsim" of SH3/4 where the streets seem meaner and less personal ??

[CB..]

yup it's the ease with which you can tinker under the bonnet that makes SH2 particulary addictive...rather like running a vintage car...i'll just pull up at the side of the road and see if i can't get that carb running just a little bit cleaner...lol

but i guess with SH3/4 the thing that knackers me is the weather.and the time excell giveaway when you are near a convoy.. ..that warp hole out of which the clouds appear directly over head just screams "naff" at me...in fact the over-all general aspects of the gameplay are what i enjoy the most..the travelling to and from patrol spots..the radio contacts giving me clues to where to go next...trying to work out where to patrol and where not to patrol...watching the weather change..(and being able to check the weather reports for extra information and of course finding the weather reports to be accurate!) yup the radio message said there would be a fog bank at such and such a LAT LONG and when i get there blammo...yup it bloomin well is foggy!...
in fact the actual combat part really doesn't do much more for me than add a little tension to the atmosphere... nothing more..the real joy is for me finding the convoys and all the dynamic events ,reports, weather observations and navigation that lead up to it that are the gameplay hooks...

all SH3/4 really seemed to be interested in is tonnage..which is fine and obviuosly in keeping completely with the simulations purpose...but as we know...the combat only takes place after many hours of "other stuff"-
they forgot to put the "other stuff" into SH3/4 and what they did put in was done in such a prefunctory manner as to make it far less enjoyable than it might have been...dunno ..just not user friendly for the less tonnage focused player ...because it's HOW you got that tonnage that's the story.. not the amount shown on the score board at the end of the mission.. anyhuw that's my bent on things...
as we know huge numbers of uboat kaptains never sank anything at all!!! it's their story i'm interested in ,in terms of gameplay history and realism also..

here's a good example of tinkering about that's very much easier and automatic with SH2

one limitation with SH2 is the types of shipping and the paint jobs which are fairly bland to say the least..

but having got a few repaints (Covets repaint utils are available? plus jrf texman? i have them..)

ope a merchant UDF file with notepad and


#if between(19390101,date,19400401)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint1
#endif
#if between(19400402,date,19400615)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint2
#endif
#if between(19400616,date,19420401)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint3
#endif
#if between(19420402,date,19421201)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint4
#endif
#if between(19421202,date,19430101)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint5
#endif
#if between(19430102,date,19430501)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint6
#endif
#if between(19430502,date,19430801)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint7
#endif
#if between(19430802,date,19430901)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint8
#endif
#if between(19430902,date,19440401)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint9
#endif
#if between(19440402,date,19440501)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint10
#endif
#if between(19440502,date,19450101)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint11
#endif
#if between(19450102,date,19450501)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint12
#endif
#if between(19450502,date,19460101)
Model = MSCCargo2_paint13
#endif


heck have a new repaint for every month right thru the war...no limits at all there..

and make another version of the same UDF with the dates reversed so the paints appear in a different order date wise ..add the new UDF name to the missions and there we are convoys with a never ending parade of different skins for the merchant..do it too all the ships and wham major revamp...

all done with notepad (and the repaint tool in this case)

i agree with you Horsa
there is seemingly no end in sight to the sort of stuff you can implement into SH2 usually with nothing more complicated than notepad and a LOT of patience...and SH2 does this stuff so well..great!

long live "THE OTHER STUFF!!!"

[Hitman]

as we know...the combat only takes place after many hours of "other stuff"-
they forgot to put the "other stuff" into SH3/4 and what they did put in was done in such a prefunctory manner as to make it far less enjoyable than it might have been...dunno ..just not user friendly for the less tonnage focused player ...because it's HOW you got that tonnage that's the story.. not the amount shown on the score board at the end of the mission.. anyhuw that's my bent on things...

Spot on as usual CB, couldn't agree more....

Fortunately there have been some improvements in the SH3/SH4 that have allowed to enjoy a bit more the "historical and physical environment" like the improved U-Boat physics (Slow-down when clashing against waves on the bow, manual navigation with sextant and such) but no doubt the dynamic campaign came at the cost of some dynamism....even if it sounds contradictory

What really kills me in SH3 is that permament feeling of being alone at sea and in the war. I feel the whole war like in May 1945 ... sort of "We are the last Uboat alive, we are alone against all the allies" No matter if other surface units are added, you have always that damned feeling of being the only Uboat, and missing the wolfpack operations in an uboat game is unfortunately missing 90% of the story. I'm not talking just about coordinated attacks, but also coordinated search, BDU shifting the pack continuously from here to there, expanding or enclosing the distance between UBoots, asking some to send weather reports and all that. SH2 instead still allows implementing all that fairly easily with some little aid (Kriegstanz or Rossbach generator).

On the positive side however, the TDC is much more correct than in SH2 which in my case is hugely important.

[CB..]

cheers HM
yes SH3 and that one man against the world trip!
using serg's AI wolfpack boats and some file editing to modify them a little
i got myself a decent GENUINE reliance on the AI uboats for all my contact reports and patrol info..

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=wolfpack

it worked perfectly (and was 100% total hardcore "other stuff" realism..) but not popular enough to catch on. not enough things going boom BOOM!! ..that "other stuff" realism needs some patience...the trouble was that having eventualy found a convoy in SH3 (or rather found an area of low time excelleration then finding a convoy in it....arghh...very dull) it gradualy became abundantly clear that it hadn't actualy been worth the effort...lol...
.but this shows file wise one of the other drawbacks of SH3 nicely....the production of mods is made difficult because so many different aspects of the game are carried in singular files rather than each aspect being carried in it's own file..so forcing the production of super mod packs rather than deft soloutions for individual issues...
you see the problem with SH3 is that because of the switch to the dynamic campaign happenning half way thru the thing
you end up with two seperate games in one..
game one----find the area of low time excelleration
game two----find the actual convoy and attack...

game two is just a very VERY basic semi scripted (in effect) single mission enclosed in an other wise dynamic campaign..

and you CAN see the join..

yeugh..

[Col7777]

Hello CB, Horsa, Hitman, Floater,

He He, after a few visits to subsim I was tempted to reload SH2 again.
I have it loaded now and played a few missions, phew, I was rusty, at first I made a few mistakes on installing, got it to load and play then added something then got the blanker/janus error etc.
I re-installed and had it playing again, I have XP, is there a way to get full screen or do I need the Dosbox thing?
I still have a lot of stuff saved on disk from the old days but when I looked I forgot what a lot of it was for or if some of it was any good, I was a bit reluctant to install in case I had to start over again.
I've read a lot of the posts to try and bring myself up to speed again but a lot of the knowledge from the old forum is gone, any way I'll stick around in the background for a while and try to get SH2 as I had it once before.

Col.

[horsa]

Hi Col ... good to see you around.

If nothing else Pacific Aces should work sweetly

I still run things on XP, so I don't see why you would need to do anything special with it.

I still mod DC/SH2 mainly for fun ( check out Iron Seas in the Special Projects)

Hitman and CB are still around but Floater hasn't really been seen in a while .. pity