Who was the more evil power in WWII ?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I thought you were cool AL ..

What seems to be the problem?

[STEED]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

What seems to be the problem?

He thinks your not so hip these days.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by STEED

He thinks your not so hip these days.

Groovy!

[Jimbuna]

I think he's into younger chics

Either that or he didn't appreciate earlier comments re: the bomb....and that I can understand

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I also think that Neal got it all wrong with bringing the Confederate soldiers into the discussion. Because most people in the North didnt give a **** about the slaves. Freeing the slaves was just a shrewd move by Lincoln, it at the same time hit the South at his most vulnerable spot, and raised the political price of foreign intervention. Saying that the South was evil because it was a slave country is pure hippocrisy, because the only difference was that they couldnt do away with it as easily and quickly as the North, which the North used in its favour.

I see a big problem with that argument. It is true that soldiers always fight for more basic causes than their leaders claim. The southern soldiers also couldn't have cared less about secession, or state's rights; they fought because they percieved that the North had invaded their states.

But when you bring up Lincoln and his causes, you ignore the fact that he was, before the war, indeed a proclamed abolitionist; and you disregard the fact that the states' right to secede came up in the first place because the southern states, in their own articles, declared that they were seceeding because the northern states wanted to use the federal government to take away their slaves (which wasn't entirely true, but then that holds for pretty much every argument made on both sides of that war, and probably most other wars as well).

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I see a big problem with that argument. It is true that soldiers always fight for more basic causes than their leaders claim. The southern soldiers also couldn't have cared less about secession, or state's rights; they fought because they percieved that the North had invaded their states.

But when you bring up Lincoln and his causes, you ignore the fact that he was, before the war, indeed a proclamed abolitionist; and you disregard the fact that the states' right to secede came up in the first place because the southern states, in their own articles, declared that they were seceeding because the northern states wanted to use the federal government to take away their slaves (which wasn't entirely true, but then that holds for pretty much every argument made on both sides of that war, and probably most other wars as well).

I never said anything against Lincoln, I just explained that Neals logic makes him (and anyone in the US before 1865) a evil person because of slavery. I said "if" which is too complicated .. as some people got it wrong and now insist I am a revisionist and probably a racist as well

[joea]

Ok time to put and end to this thread:



(Is it a Panzer? US Army? Red Army? British Army? Imperial Japanese Army? People's Liberation Army? Isreali or Iran? Or maybe even Andorra?)

Cause it don't make sense anymore:

[Takeda Shingen]

Nice pic.

Look, I agree that this thread is dead, but nothing is lock-worthy. If everyone has had enough, and I know I have, we should just stop posting in this one.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I said "if" which is too complicated .. as some people got it wrong and now insist I am a revisionist and probably a racist as well

Not to me. I just get my back up at the old argument about the causes of that particular fight. There were so many different causes that sometimes I think everybody was fighting for something different.

I've been avoiding the actual topic because I don't know. Compared to the ancient Assyrians the Romans and Alexander's Greeks weren't so bad. They didn't make piles of skulls out of the people who resisted them. But I do agree that for the most part the common soldier usually has a very different reason for fighting than the ones for which his leaders actually went to war.

[Hakahura]

Here's my response to the original question...


Germany.


Closely followed my Japan and Italy then the remaining Axis powers.

Why?

Not because they failed to write history, but because they were the aggressors.

And WWII was probably the most aggresive war man has ever seen thanks to the ambitions of the Axis powers.

All the horrors and attrocties commited during WWII, were put in motion and largely carried out by those that started that war.


Please feel free to discuss the above in a calm and reasonable manner, or...
Get really angry and vent your spleen in my general direction. The choice is yours.

[Stealth Hunter]

Japan. More brutal, more brainwashed, and more dedicated than Germany or Italy... or Yugoslavia, but there's no competition there.

Let's not get how the Japanese would amputate the limbs of Allied prisoners without anesthesia and then sew on a dead animal to the prisoner's stump. Sick people. They were bright in using prisoners for live munitions testing. First, they'd fire on them with whatever weapon they were using, to see the damage. Then, they'd hand them over to their medical staff to train medics and field surgeons (they were particularly fond of using howitzers and grenades AND bayonets).

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

I would rephrase that to read:

"It's really a pity that we didn't produce the A-bomb much sooner. We could have dropped the A-Bomb on them instead."

I could only expect such barbaric wishes from a jew and an american...

[Smaragdadler]

Has nothing to do with nationality, sky is blue everywhere...

...The suggestion at this point is that by late 1944, Waffen-SS scientists in Germany had developed a catalyst or reagent, apparently a waxy substance, maybe a plasmoid of some kind, which when added to a conventional explosive containing liquid air vastly magnified the effect, killing everything within a three mile radius by blast, tremendous heat and suffocation. It appears also to have had undesirable meteorological effects.
On April 16, 1945 the Type XB submarine U-234 (KL Fehler) departed Kristiansand, Norway for Japan direct. She had loaded at Kiel in January and February, and besides a strategic cargo in the region of 260 tonnes carried ten German and two Japanese passengers, all of whom were specialists in the military field or scientists.


On May 17, 1945, against his express orders, Kptlt. Fehler decided to surrender his submarine to the US Navy, and arrived two days later at Portsmouth Navy Yard, New Hampshire.
What is principally of interest is the cargo, and in particular ten cases of "uranium oxide" of 560 kilograms weight, and several items which were not included on the Unloading Manifest.
The Unloading Manifest (US NAT Arch, College Park MD, Box RG38, Box 13, Document OP-20-3-G1-A (Unloading Manifest) dated May 24, 1945) is a falsified document purporting to show the entire cargo aboard U-234. The true Manifests, both American and German, have never been declassified. In the normal course of events, a Manifest upon declassification would bear the censor's deletions where it was intended that certain items should not be displayed. The USN alleged Unloading Manifest is clean of any deletions and purports to be the true Unloading Manifest. From a declassified cable, it is evident that 80 cases of Uranium Powder have been omitted, as was also, from the statements of the U-boat crew members and Kptlt. Fehler, a two-seater Me 262 bomber aircraft brought from Rechlin and stowed in its component parts.
Germany had 1,200 tonnes of uranium oxide on hand at Oolen in Belgium throughout the war, but made no strides towards making an atom bomb. Nevertheless, many commentators fantasize an embryonic atom bomb in the 560 kilos of "uranium oxide" aboard U-234. It is a fantasy, for such evidence as exists points to this being a cover word for something else.
Two official documents address the ten cases of "uranium oxide" directly.
a. A report headed "Regarding 'URANIUM OXIDE' and other CARGO aboard U-234" on the interrogation of Geschwaderrichter Kay Nieschling, U-234 passenger by USN Intelligence Officer Lt Best states that "Lt Pfaff was the man responsible for loading the U-boat" and that "the meaning behind the ore" - peculiar phrase suggesting that the ore was not the ore - would be known by Kptlt. Falk (or Falck) who took some secret courses before he boarded the U-boat. Kptlt. Fehler should also know something about the ore."
It does not appear that Kptlt. Falk or Falck survived his interrogation, for there is no record of his return to Germany, and the US authorities have not been able to account for his movements in their custody after interrogating him on May 26, 1945. There are other indications that the "uranium ore" was extraordinary. Lt. Col. John Lansdale, chief of security for the Manhattan Project, wrote in a 1996 newspaper article published in Britain and Germany that he had personally handled the disposal of the ten cases. He stated that the American military authorities "reacted with panic" when they learned what the cases contained.
b. The second document was found by researcher Joseph Mark Scalia, a former 12-year US Navy man, during a rummage through old boxes at the Portsmouth Navy Yard. It is a secret cable from CNO to NYPORT on the subject "MINE TUBES, UNLOADING OF" and states:
"Interrogation Lt. Pfaff IIWO U-234 discloses he was in charge of cargo and personally supervised loading all mine tubes. Pfaff prepared Manifest List and knows kind cargo in each tube. Uranium Oxide loaded in gold-lined cylinders and as long as cylinders not opened can be handled like crude TNT. These containers should not be opened as substance will become sensitive and dangerous..."
The so-called "Uranium Oxide" would become sensitive and dangerous if exposed to air. The so-called "Uranium Oxide" was perfectly safe in its cylinders provided one respected it as one would dynamite. The so-called "Uranium Oxide" was sealed in a cylinder lined with gold.
In nuclear physics gold is used to absorb fission fragments plus gamma rays in containers, and is particularly efficient at capturing neutron radiation as well. From this it is evident that the material in the ten cylinders was not just highly radioactive - it was extraordinarily dangerous and behaving as if it were itself a nuclear reactor. No atomic physicist who has examined the evidence about these ten cases has been able to deliver an opinion as to what substance kept within a lead case might have required these extraordinary precautions.
On May 24, 1945, when the US Navy began to unload U-234, it is clear from the US State papers that no decision regarding the atom bomb had been taken by the US government. On May 30, 1945, both Secretary of State Stimson and President Truman were agreed that no alternative existed to deploying America's atomic arsenal against Japan.
They had no alternative to using the atom bomb, and no satisfactory reason has ever been forthcoming why that decision was made. So what could have caused these two decent men to decide that such a course of action was unavoidable?
What was aboard U-234 might also be aboard other Japan-bound U-boats. The Japanese had at least two submarines with a range of 30,000 miles, that were capable of being used as aircraft launchers. The Japanese had a plan of mixing the uranium from U-234 with standard explosives, and loading them in bombs or planes which were to take off the submarines and attack San Francisco. The target date was August 1945; they were ready, only waiting for the shipment of uranium to arrive.
That would make no sense unless the "uranium" from U-234 was the waxy substance which when mixed with conventional explosives turned the material into the miracle weapon. These two Japanese submarines would be very close to San Francisco, and the pilots of the bomber aircraft would have to be kamikazes, for proximity to the waxy substance meant certain death.
If the Japanese were indeed in the process of being supplied with this material by German U-boats for use against the United States west coast, then this was the reason for the nuclear attacks against Japan. ...

--> http://greyfalcon.us/Located%20near%20Ohrdruf.htm

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Swede

I could only expect such barbaric wishes from a jew and an american...

Then you'd be surpised.

[/quote]
Then you'd be surpised.[/quote]

After reading the protocolls of the learned elders of zion, nothing about your kind surprises me