Hiroshima

[Letum]

Originally Posted by micky1up

well before you make statements remember the estimate of how many soldiers would have died in an invasion of japan and the its in the millions it may sound like screwd logic but those two atomic weapons saved many lives

You can not save lives by boming people!

You can save lives by not bombing people and not invadeing Japan!

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Letum

You can not save lives by boming people!

You can save lives by not bombing people and not invadeing Japan!

You save your peoples lives by bombing them.

[micky1up]

Originally Posted by Letum

You can not save lives by boming people!

You can save lives by not bombing people and not invadeing Japan!

you havent a clue what your saying with the kamakazi mentality that every veteran will tell you about an invasion would have cost millions thats a fact every island taken cost thousands and where defended fanatically the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few

[Letum]

Originally Posted by micky1up

you havent a clue what your saying with the kamakazi mentality that every veteran will tell you about an invasion would have cost millions thats a fact every island taken cost thousands and where defended fanatically the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few

With respect, I know what I am saying, but I think you have misread what I wrote.

An invasion would have been out of the question.

Read what I wrote very carefuly!

[Skybird]

Letum is right in so far that the world in the 20th century would have been a more peaceful and less cruel place if only Hitler and Stalin and MaoTseTung wouldn't have popped up (beside a number of others) and decided to play foul. But they did, so... so what, Letum...!? :hmm:

That in times of war there is war, is because war means the absence of peace. In war it is not as peaceful as during peace, since during peace there is less war, and more peace. Logical, right?

Reason is a nice thing to settle disputes - but oinly if the other is of the same willingness to use reason. If he is not, unfortunately he has the ability to screw up the match for all players by that. then you either raise and leave the table to him, which means it is game over for you, or you stay and kick him out if he doesn't follow the game's rules. It is enough to send one Chamberlain in a good-willing attempt. Absolutely no use and no reason in sending him twice. And sometimes, even the first one attempt already is costly enough.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Letum is right in so far that the world in the 20th century would have been a more peaceful and less cruel place if only Hitler and Stalin and MaoTseTung wouldn't have popped up (beside a number of others) and decided to play foul.

I wonder if they had never existed whether others would just have taken their place.

[Ishmael]

I've been busy preparing for the Randi Rhodes Air America Alaska Cruise we're leaving on Friday. I apologize for not commenting on this thread on Aug. 6 itself but I'm doing so now. First of all, here is the wiki link for Operation Downfall, the Allied Invasion of Japan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_downfall

I direct you to the specific section dealing with Kestugo Sakusen, the Japanese defensive plans. To those who think negotiations were working, I direct you to the Japanese High command's decision to fully mobilize the entire Japanese population for defense. Also remember that the Emperor was a God and obedience was a sacred duty to the Japanese people. The Japanese terms included continuity of the entire wartime government and possession of captured territories gained by aggressive war.
These terms could never be accepted.

If you read the link on the Japanese defense plans, you'll see they had 10,000 kamikaze planes held in reserve to specifically target troop ships including Ohka rocket bombs and jet aircraft being built with German jet technology. Also remember that the Soviet Union had entered the war with Japan and had plans to invade Hokkaido on August 15, 1945.

Had the bombs not been used, the invasion force would have faced daunting, fanatical odds as the Japanese fought harder the closer you got to the home islands. Put yourself in Truman's shoes at the time. What would have been the result of an invasion disaster if it became known that he had a weapon that could have ended it early but did not use it?

Now I have a nuclear weapons background and have participated in NWAI's(Nuclear Weapons Acceptance Inspections) needed for nuclear capable certification, annual NTPIs(Nuclear Technical Proficiency Inspections) and TSIs(Technical Surprise Inspections). I have also walked the streets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during that time. I concur with Truman's decision and believe to this day that, by shortening the war, it saved Allied and Japanese lives in toto and saved the overall sovereignty of the Japanese nation. Had Hokkaido been occupied by the Soviets, do we seriously believe they would have relenquished that occupation?

I said prayers and burned joss sticks for the souls of the dead yesterday and will do so again on Thursday for Nagasaki.

So in closing, here is my poem that deals with my feelings on the matter:

Mushotoku
By Richard Scott

The essence of One Cut, We climbed Mt. Niitaka,
That bright December morning on the East Wind Rain.
Crying, “Asia for Asians!”, we floated out of the sky over the harbor of pearls,
Like cherry blossom petals on the Kamikaze,
To slay the sleeping giant, honor our Emperor and our ancestors.
We ran wild over the Pacific for a year,
But Asia for the Japanese was not just.
For we had only awakened the giant,
Filling him with a terrible resolve.
Our Chiburi, blood falling like rain,
Was scattered across the jungles and atolls of the Pacific,
Leaving a trail for him to follow,
Back to the home islands.
We honored our Emperor and our ancestors,
But the giant brought with him the Whirlwind,
That burned shadows into the walls of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
And changed the Divine Showa into a human being.

Mushotoku
By Richard Scott
© 1990 all rights reserved

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by August

I wonder if they had never existed whether others would just have taken their place.

MaoTseTung - Zhu De
Stalin - Lenin
Hitler - Nobody. Without him Nazi Germany wouldn't have been.

[August]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

MaoTseTung - Zhu De
Stalin - Lenin
Hitler - Nobody. Without him Nazi Germany wouldn't have been.

Hitler didn't create the nazi party though.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by August

Hitler didn't create the nazi party though.

No he just co-opted it and radically altered its base ideology eventually eliminating its original leadership.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by August

Hitler didn't create the nazi party though.

No he didn't but he made it into as we know it. He made it into the Third Reich. The Nazi party was whatever Hitler said it was once he joined them and became leader. Who else could have drawn and held together that psychotic gang of misfits?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Hitler - Nobody. Without him Nazi Germany wouldn't have been.

Not sure, Brad. Not many people do know that the first events of massive Jewish shop crushings - did not taken place in Germany during the 30s or during the Reichskristallnacht, but already over ten years earlier, in the early twenties - in Austria. The Nazi's unmistakable pong already was in the air, together with strong antisemitic sentiments throughout Europe: Austria, Germany, and France and England as well. Probably there would have been noone able to put up such a giant horror show like Hitler did, but another leading figure making something out of the constellation surely would have shown up. Maybe even some of the names that under Hitler raised to power.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Not sure, Brad. Not many people do know that the first events of massive Jewish shop crushings - did not taken place in Germany during the 30s or during the Reichskristallnacht, but already over ten years earlier, in the early twenties - in Austria. The Nazi's unmistakable pong already was in the air, together with strong antisemitic sentiments throughout Europe: Austria, Germany, and France and England as well. Probably there would have been noone able to put up such a giant horror show like Hitler did, but another leading figure making something out of the constellation surely would have shown up. Maybe even some of the names that under Hitler raised to power.

I recall reading that as a young man Hitler spent some influential years in Vienna as he was studying, or attempting to anyway, to become a painter at the Vienna School of Art. I believe what I read said that the city at that time left great mark on him and that he considered it to be a model city. Perhaps Hitler's rampant anti-semitism might partly have a root in this period.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Not sure, Brad. Not many people do know that the first events of massive Jewish shop crushings - did not taken place in Germany during the 30s or during the Reichskristallnacht, but already over ten years earlier, in the early twenties - in Austria. The Nazi's unmistakable pong already was in the air, together with strong antisemitic sentiments throughout Europe: Austria, Germany, and France and England as well. Probably there would have been noone able to put up such a giant horror show like Hitler did, but another leading figure making something out of the constellation surely would have shown up. Maybe even some of the names that under Hitler raised to power.

True, but Hitler put into extreme action the ideology. The 'Jewish Conspiracy' was a part of it. The Nazi party would still have been but I'm sure there would not have been extermination camps, nor would there have been a world war.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

MaoTseTung - Zhu De
Stalin - Lenin
Hitler - Nobody. Without him Nazi Germany wouldn't have been.

Lenin?!
Lenin and the Bolsheviks ruled in a very diffrent way fthan Stalin and the Soviets.