The human element...

08-07-07, 04:57 AM

Thats an interesting idea. When i play i sort of rolplay it a bit when handing out medals. IE i only give medals to crewmembers that i feel played a vital part in my sucess.

But it would in deed be a cool feature to at least socialise with the officers. And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

AVGWarhawk · 08-07-07, 06:05 AM

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

madjack · 08-07-07, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

Heh - I wondered how long it would take before some hard-ass would mention 'consoles' and 'The Sims' in one sentence.

Look, I don't want to consolify the SH series (and mentioning The Sims is a strawman), but why this abhorrence for giving the men under your command a little more depth?

Quote:

The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings.

But surely that's not how it was? As captain, it wasn't just you and your boat. It was you, your boat and your crew. As captain, you lived with them for months at a time - why not at least give a bit more of a nod towards that fact? To me it's odd to talk about SH being a comprehensive simulation, yet the fact these machines were crewed by men is given only the most cursory of workovers. If you read any account from a WW2 submariner, he won't give just the technical accounts of a patrol (i.e. 'made crashdive after spotting plane'), he'll also talk about the crew and what was going on with them.

Quote:

I do not see how the human element would add to the game.

I think you're dead wrong. I agree, I wouldn't like to see some of the technical aspects watered down - definitely not 'consolised', but adding a bit more crew depth would really add 'depth' to the game.

The other thing is - is this not a valid area for the SH series to develop? We don't know if there'll be another SH, but one thing's for sure, they have to keep attracting new customers? A little bit of exposition as to the men on your boat might be just the thing to bring in a new round of customers and get them hooked on subs.

Quote:

Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that

Mate - I'm not going to keep a little story pad nearby - ok? I made the suggestion for a personal captain's diary as an easy way for a game designer to give the game a bit more human interest.

EAF274 Johan · 08-07-07, 06:57 AM

SH4 contains many role-playing elements, like crew names, medals, promotions, individual morale status. In my opinion it is up to the player how to use them. When I play SH4, I try to pay attention to these things, e.g. I will try to remember the name of a crewmember who got injured or of the officer in charge of important repairs, and they will be on top of my list when medals are to be distributed.

So no, I don't think SH4 needs more role-plaing elements, they are already there. If you want to do without them you can just ignore them, but if you want to use them, you can

Of course there's always room for improvement, like the captain's log that was suggested (I like the idea!).

The only thing that really limits the way I feel about my simulated crew is the lack of crew speech. If my officers would give an audible acknowledgement of all orders, or if there would be some more random background speech (like cries when the boat is being damaged, coughing when there is a fire) I would have a much better feeling that I am in a boat with "real" people.

Takeda Shingen · 08-07-07, 06:57 AM

Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?

madjack · 08-07-07, 07:17 AM

Sorry - it was your sig pic - he looks like a 'hard ass'

Takeda Shingen · 08-07-07, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madjack

Sorry - it was your sig pic - he looks like a 'hard ass'

So then it is acceptable if I judge you by your current avatar? Maturity, please. This isn't Ubi.

Peto · 08-07-07, 09:18 AM

I like the idea of more crew interaction but know enough about game writing/programming to realize that another element of the game would suffer (ie poorer AI or other essential sim elements). The one thing that I think can add to creating a "closer relationship" with the crew is mandatory rotation. It was typical of US Subs to have up to a third of the crew rotated out after a patrol and the officers sometimes had to fight a "paper battle" to keep some men they really wanted on the boat.

But I do NOT want the developers to spend time on this aspect of a sim at the expense of critical game mechanics. I can always choose to rotate my crew after each patrol and--well--actually I frequently do send some 1st class petty officers packing when I get too many of them. But there are always a copuple with familiar names I like to keep aboard.

Cheers!

Peto

Von Tonner · 08-07-07, 09:28 AM

You make some good points madjack. Speaking for myself I know I am far more upset so to speak when I lose a boat if I have a crew that I have captained for a few missions where some have specialised, have had promotions, decorations, experience etc. The status of your crew is a dynamical element in the game with cause = effect.

JScones built a mod in SH3 called SH3 Commander which went some way to increase the human element. Unfortunately he is not going to do it for SH4 (for valid reasons) but has offered his knowledge to any other modder who wants to bring this into SH4. Here is hoping.

ReallyDedPoet · 08-07-07, 07:17 AM

Welcome to SUBSIM

madjack

AVG is no hard-ass. Being civil goes along way here

RDP

John Channing · 08-07-07, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

ReallyDedPoet · 08-07-07, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

And you do it well

RDP

AVGWarhawk · 08-07-07, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

Yeah, good cop, bad cop thing

donut · 08-07-07, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?

Agreed: name calling is not an Officer.& A Gentleman's bid for respect.........!

AVGWarhawk · 08-07-07, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madjack

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

Heh - I wondered how long it would take before some hard-ass would mention 'consoles' and 'The Sims' in one sentence.

Look, I don't want to consolify the SH series (and mentioning The Sims is a strawman), but why this abhorrence for giving the men under your command a little more depth?

Quote:

The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings.

But surely that's not how it was? As captain, it wasn't just you and your boat. It was you, your boat and your crew. As captain, you lived with them for months at a time - why not at least give a bit more of a nod towards that fact? To me it's odd to talk about SH being a comprehensive simulation, yet the fact these machines were crewed by men is given only the most cursory of workovers. If you read any account from a WW2 submariner, he won't give just the technical accounts of a patrol (i.e. 'made crashdive after spotting plane'), he'll also talk about the crew and what was going on with them.

Quote:

I do not see how the human element would add to the game.

I think you're dead wrong. I agree, I wouldn't like to see some of the technical aspects watered down - definitely not 'consolised', but adding a bit more crew depth would really add 'depth' to the game.

The other thing is - is this not a valid area for the SH series to develop? We don't know if there'll be another SH, but one thing's for sure, they have to keep attracting new customers? A little bit of exposition as to the men on your boat might be just the thing to bring in a new round of customers and get them hooked on subs.

Quote:

Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that

Mate - I'm not going to keep a little story pad nearby - ok? I made the suggestion for a personal captain's diary as an easy way for a game designer to give the game a bit more human interest.

Hardass I'm not. Creating a fantasy world with a 3D generated crew on a hard drive talking or repeating the same old dribble does not make sense to me. Sure, you hear the same old voices that pertain to the operation of the boat and what is happening. I do not need to stand infront of a 3D generated person and talk about Mary Jane Rottencrotch in the last port of call. Also, adding crew depth I do not believe will attract more customers to the genre. Selling a complete, bug free game will do that. As I stated, the only depth I need to see is increasing more voices of things happening, ie depth charge in water, ship spotted....one warship, two merchants.... something to this effect. How is looking at a guy and hear him repeat at every sitting..."Do you want to play Cribbage?" crew interaction?

08-07-07, 06:05 AM	#2
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,286 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

08-07-07, 06:57 AM	#4
EAF274 Johan Ensign Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Gent, Belgium Posts: 228 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	SH4 contains many role-playing elements, like crew names, medals, promotions, individual morale status. In my opinion it is up to the player how to use them. When I play SH4, I try to pay attention to these things, e.g. I will try to remember the name of a crewmember who got injured or of the officer in charge of important repairs, and they will be on top of my list when medals are to be distributed. So no, I don't think SH4 needs more role-plaing elements, they are already there. If you want to do without them you can just ignore them, but if you want to use them, you can Of course there's always room for improvement, like the captain's log that was suggested (I like the idea!). The only thing that really limits the way I feel about my simulated crew is the lack of crew speech. If my officers would give an audible acknowledgement of all orders, or if there would be some more random background speech (like cries when the boat is being damaged, coughing when there is a fire) I would have a much better feeling that I am in a boat with "real" people. __________________ *Rock 'n' roll is the only religion that will never let you down*

08-07-07, 07:17 AM	#10
ReallyDedPoet Canadian Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada. The one and only, East Coast Posts: 10,890 Downloads: 946 Uploads: 5	Welcome to SUBSIM madjack AVG is no hard-ass. Being civil goes along way here RDP __________________ Back in the Day

08-07-07, 04:57 AM	#1
Swede Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thats an interesting idea. When i play i sort of rolplay it a bit when handing out medals. IE i only give medals to crewmembers that i feel played a vital part in my sucess. But it would in deed be a cool feature to at least socialise with the officers. And maybe have some random events where they throw a tantrum or something else, where your response either increases or decreases their effectiveness.

08-07-07, 06:57 AM	#5
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?

08-07-07, 07:17 AM	#6
madjack Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 9 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Sorry - it was your sig pic - he looks like a 'hard ass'

08-07-07, 09:18 AM	#8
Peto Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The details of my life are quite inconsequential Posts: 1,049 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I like the idea of more crew interaction but know enough about game writing/programming to realize that another element of the game would suffer (ie poorer AI or other essential sim elements). The one thing that I think can add to creating a "closer relationship" with the crew is mandatory rotation. It was typical of US Subs to have up to a third of the crew rotated out after a patrol and the officers sometimes had to fight a "paper battle" to keep some men they really wanted on the boat. But I do NOT want the developers to spend time on this aspect of a sim at the expense of critical game mechanics. I can always choose to rotate my crew after each patrol and--well--actually I frequently do send some 1st class petty officers packing when I get too many of them. But there are always a copuple with familiar names I like to keep aboard. Cheers! Peto

08-07-07, 09:28 AM	#9
Von Tonner Seasoned Skipper Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Africa Posts: 711 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	You make some good points madjack. Speaking for myself I know I am far more upset so to speak when I lose a boat if I have a crew that I have captained for a few missions where some have specialised, have had promotions, decorations, experience etc. The status of your crew is a dynamical element in the game with cause = effect. JScones built a mod in SH3 called SH3 Commander which went some way to increase the human element. Unfortunately he is not going to do it for SH4 (for valid reasons) but has offered his knowledge to any other modder who wants to bring this into SH4. Here is hoping.