Petition for tutorials forum

Kingcobra24 · 08-02-07, 08:15 AM

I take it you don't think the Community Manual is worth using?

http://www.mysh3.info/shiii/index.php?title=Main_Page

joegrundman · 08-02-07, 09:09 AM

The community manual is worth using, but is very limited.

danurve · 08-02-07, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

The community manual is worth using, but is very limited.

In what way do you see the CM as being very limited?
Explain that if you would please.

joegrundman · 08-02-07, 11:01 AM

Sure.

The CM is excellent at achieving what it aims to achieve, which is to elaborate on the SH3 manual. In fact the first page of the CM says it better than I can: "This wiki is a community supported supplement to the Silent Hunter III user manual"

Look it is very good, but do you believe that it is the definitive guide to all there is to know about the game? It's an introduction that I along with many others found and still find useful but it does not go into much detail beyond the nuts and bolts.

That's not a bad thing! It's important and much needed as the original documentation is inadequate.

But if you are interested in playing at a deeper level, the CM does not represent the complete guide to all there is. For example, the CM only mentions one intercept pattern and the 3min15 rule. There is no elaboration on how to use sonar and radar in historical or effective methods, how to perform TMA, other methods of getting data than the 3min15 bearing plot method, collision course approaches, trigonometry, slide rules and whiz wheels, aspect ratios, turn counts, surfaced approaches and their relevance to you when targetting and when avoiding detection, and much, much, much more.

In general, i think a forum here dedicated to tutorials would become a virtual naval academy with different levels from beginner to advanced. Methods can be improved upon and developed by virtue of the fact that it is all there in one place.

As it is, there are a lot of parallel threads just drifiting around the ether here. I am constantly discovering fascinating articles written maybe two years ago or more, but i have to wonder how much more i am missing. If these were all in a forum together in appropriate sections, nothing would be that hard to find. It would be easier to contrast and compare different approaches to similar problems and so on...

danurve · 08-02-07, 12:38 PM

No, it isn't an all there is to know. There is much beyond nuts and bolts and that, seems to be a changing area because of mods, tactics, and knowledge.
These things mentioned would be indeed worthy topics anchored in one way or another into the CM. You like many other players look for more information, or perhaps an elaboration of details or information about methods, tactics, and so on.
By design, the CM wiki can be ever-changing. Or, community supported.
Existing topics can be edited, corrected, edit-talk, watched, modified, interlinked, redirected, categorised, revised, heck create 4 or more headlines in a topic and the software automaticaly creates a table of contents for it. Images can even be uploaded and placed with topics.
The exact same thing can be said for a new topic.
But to elaborate a "page" could be done for a mod, topic or any subject and then categorised and listed easily, instanty becoming available by links or search. There is nothing set in stone, with the exception of a few protected pages. Otherwise the CM has the potential of being something of an unlimited resource. If, IF - that was indeed the case of a community effort then it would certainly free up the forums here for topics of disscusion wich the CM is not designed for.
The CM also has a Current events section, a community portal - somewhat of a sandbox for things needed, things done. Plus a decent search feature. And last but not least a recent changes feature, which a user track editing history as a whole instead of just a particular subject-topic. There are no ads, no pop-ups, and the site is paid for, for now.
I decided to restored the CM after it was down for months and months of neglect. The old sub-sim forum even had a sticky for it.
Whats the old saying; you can bring a horse to water but can't make them drink. Indeed. Since it's restoration besides myself there have been 2-3 other people who have made contributions, and I would thank them for their time. But if you don't belive me use the recent changes feature, the software doesn't lie. Out of how many thousands of users, even a few hundred with potential knowledge to add? Nevertheless a poor ratio whatever the reason.
Please forgive me if this sounds like an angry rebuttal, not ment to be. But far less then a handfull of people can't be expected to do all the work. When I see posts about what it isn't, complaints and such it reminds me of what a give-me give-me place the internet realy is. And then as a webmaster one begins to wonder if the efforts was worth while.

emtmedic005 · 08-02-07, 12:48 PM

I love the Community Manual but it is very limited , it doesnt answer indepth questions, but for a newbie starting off its a great tool to use, also the hammer is a great tool to use on ur PC when SH3 is acting up

XLjedi · 08-02-07, 01:47 PM

There's really no comparison between focused discussion groups and the community manual. It's really unfair to the CM to even make such a comparison.

Mentoring, and the free expression of ideas is what draws me to the forums. I'm not really interested in re-reviewing the CM on a day-to-day basis; I much prefer the open discussion. I mean it's the difference between a teacher and a textbook. No one would suggest that teachers aren't necessary in the classroom because all the answers are already in the book. I think the CM serves it's role well as a decent primer.

There's already a breakout for modding efforts... So I guess what you're after are subtopics under the general SH3 category. I'm not necessarily against the idea.

What categories would you propose? I think the most challenging part of doing something like that would be the natural overlap between proposed categories. As well as the fact that you'd almost have to consolidate the SH3 & SH4 forums so that topics on navigation and attack plotting theory for instance wouldn't exist in both.

I guess the flip-side to the argument would be that if there were too many categories, noobs would become overwhelmed and have no idea which forum is appropriate for their questions... Totally aside from the fact that forum admins workload would have to increase in the sense that folks would post off-topic and the admins would have to educate new posters and/or spend time moving things around.

I've seen on other forums where they've instituted a system for helping to classify the post by using a mandatory dropdown selection next to the title (a set list of keywords) to help assist in refining search results.

08-02-07, 08:15 AM	#1
Kingcobra24 Soundman Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 142 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I take it you don't think the Community Manual is worth using? http://www.mysh3.info/shiii/index.php?title=Main_Page __________________

08-02-07, 09:09 AM	#2
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	The community manual is worth using, but is very limited. __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

08-02-07, 11:01 AM	#4
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Sure. The CM is excellent at achieving what it aims to achieve, which is to elaborate on the SH3 manual. In fact the first page of the CM says it better than I can: "This wiki is a community supported supplement to the Silent Hunter III user manual" Look it is very good, but do you believe that it is the definitive guide to all there is to know about the game? It's an introduction that I along with many others found and still find useful but it does not go into much detail beyond the nuts and bolts. That's not a bad thing! It's important and much needed as the original documentation is inadequate. But if you are interested in playing at a deeper level, the CM does not represent the complete guide to all there is. For example, the CM only mentions one intercept pattern and the 3min15 rule. There is no elaboration on how to use sonar and radar in historical or effective methods, how to perform TMA, other methods of getting data than the 3min15 bearing plot method, collision course approaches, trigonometry, slide rules and whiz wheels, aspect ratios, turn counts, surfaced approaches and their relevance to you when targetting and when avoiding detection, and much, much, much more. In general, i think a forum here dedicated to tutorials would become a virtual naval academy with different levels from beginner to advanced. Methods can be improved upon and developed by virtue of the fact that it is all there in one place. As it is, there are a lot of parallel threads just drifiting around the ether here. I am constantly discovering fascinating articles written maybe two years ago or more, but i have to wonder how much more i am missing. If these were all in a forum together in appropriate sections, nothing would be that hard to find. It would be easier to contrast and compare different approaches to similar problems and so on... __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

08-02-07, 12:38 PM	#5
danurve The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 1,481 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 3	No, it isn't an all there is to know. There is much beyond nuts and bolts and that, seems to be a changing area because of mods, tactics, and knowledge. These things mentioned would be indeed worthy topics anchored in one way or another into the CM. You like many other players look for more information, or perhaps an elaboration of details or information about methods, tactics, and so on. By design, the CM wiki can be ever-changing. Or, community supported. Existing topics can be edited, corrected, edit-talk, watched, modified, interlinked, redirected, categorised, revised, heck create 4 or more headlines in a topic and the software automaticaly creates a table of contents for it. Images can even be uploaded and placed with topics. The exact same thing can be said for a new topic. But to elaborate a "page" could be done for a mod, topic or any subject and then categorised and listed easily, instanty becoming available by links or search. There is nothing set in stone, with the exception of a few protected pages. Otherwise the CM has the potential of being something of an unlimited resource. If, IF - that was indeed the case of a community effort then it would certainly free up the forums here for topics of disscusion wich the CM is not designed for. The CM also has a Current events section, a community portal - somewhat of a sandbox for things needed, things done. Plus a decent search feature. And last but not least a recent changes feature, which a user track editing history as a whole instead of just a particular subject-topic. There are no ads, no pop-ups, and the site is paid for, for now. I decided to restored the CM after it was down for months and months of neglect. The old sub-sim forum even had a sticky for it. Whats the old saying; you can bring a horse to water but can't make them drink. Indeed. Since it's restoration besides myself there have been 2-3 other people who have made contributions, and I would thank them for their time. But if you don't belive me use the recent changes feature, the software doesn't lie. Out of how many thousands of users, even a few hundred with potential knowledge to add? Nevertheless a poor ratio whatever the reason. Please forgive me if this sounds like an angry rebuttal, not ment to be. But far less then a handfull of people can't be expected to do all the work. When I see posts about what it isn't, complaints and such it reminds me of what a give-me give-me place the internet realy is. And then as a webmaster one begins to wonder if the efforts was worth while. __________________

08-02-07, 01:47 PM	#7
XLjedi Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 1,243 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 8	There's really no comparison between focused discussion groups and the community manual. It's really unfair to the CM to even make such a comparison. Mentoring, and the free expression of ideas is what draws me to the forums. I'm not really interested in re-reviewing the CM on a day-to-day basis; I much prefer the open discussion. I mean it's the difference between a teacher and a textbook. No one would suggest that teachers aren't necessary in the classroom because all the answers are already in the book. I think the CM serves it's role well as a decent primer. There's already a breakout for modding efforts... So I guess what you're after are subtopics under the general SH3 category. I'm not necessarily against the idea. What categories would you propose? I think the most challenging part of doing something like that would be the natural overlap between proposed categories. As well as the fact that you'd almost have to consolidate the SH3 & SH4 forums so that topics on navigation and attack plotting theory for instance wouldn't exist in both. I guess the flip-side to the argument would be that if there were too many categories, noobs would become overwhelmed and have no idea which forum is appropriate for their questions... Totally aside from the fact that forum admins workload would have to increase in the sense that folks would post off-topic and the admins would have to educate new posters and/or spend time moving things around. I've seen on other forums where they've instituted a system for helping to classify the post by using a mandatory dropdown selection next to the title (a set list of keywords) to help assist in refining search results. __________________

08-02-07, 12:48 PM	#6
emtmedic005 Weps Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: North Andover, MA Posts: 361 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I love the Community Manual but it is very limited , it doesnt answer indepth questions, but for a newbie starting off its a great tool to use, also the hammer is a great tool to use on ur PC when SH3 is acting up