Definitive torpedo depth/exploder status in 1.3

[Bando]

Quite some testing....
I wondered why my torps would premature when set at contact. I guess you just answered that question.
I always fire contact shots. I figured it must yield better results than magnetic shots, but the in the end, the results were not that good at all.

I sure hope we'll be able to differentiate one way or another, so as to work those torpedoes as intended and as in real life.

Reg
Bando

[PepsiCan]

Hi

I'm nearing the end of the book I am reading, "Silent Victory", so I thought I'd add some real life vs game data to this debate.

Initially, the magnetic exploders were seen by the US Navy as a secret weapon that would give the US a significant advantage. On top of that, there was a big shortage of torpedoes. Hence, US skippers were ordered to use the magnetic exploders because that way they could sink ships with fewer torpedoes. Skippers have been known to forge their reports to hide that they turned off the magnetic exploders and/or tampered with the depth settings on the torpedos.

Then, after much dispute between top skippers and their commanders, Lockwood & Christie, Lockwood ordered a test at the start of 1943. During the test he found out that the magnetic exploder was unreliable (His team still didn't find out about the failing contact exploders. That was for another test a few months later). He then ordered all boats under his command to no longer use the magnetic exploder. Christie, under orders of Nimitz, had to follow a couple of months later.

So,
- Prior to mid-1943, skippers were under orders to use magnetic exploders
- After mid-1943 (this happened later for the Brisbane and Fremantle boats than for the Pearl boats), skippers were ordered to turn the magnetic exploders off
- The magnetic exploder issue in the torpedoes was *never* fixed!

Real life vs simulation
- It seems we have a choice button that does not work. That in itself is fine, as in reality there was not really a choice either. Skippers were under orders. Disobaying these could lead to retirement. So, if you support the view that SH4 is a simulation, the button should be removed and/or turned into an indicator.
- However, why offer the choice but then not implement it?
- A single cut off date for switching from magnetic to contact does not work as Christie only allowed them to be switched off several months after Lockwood had ordered so (I don't recall the exact dates). Boats on the exchange program between the US and Australia would sail without magnetic exploders when going from Pearl to Australia and with magnetic exploders enabled when going from Australia to Pearl.

Questions
- How reliable are the magnetic exploders in the game? Do they fail often or is it a (near) 100% hit rate?

And thanks for the great research on this so far Nomad_delta!

[kv29]

Interesting. I can confirm nomad findings, and yes, I also had prematures (until 1943 or something) even if set to contact only.

Pepsi is right too. I´ve read Submarine! (E. Beach), mk14 were doomed for the first years of war. Skippers were usually (and sadly) blamed for "missing" their targets (bad solution, incorrect settings, and so on...).Even the japanese high command knew it .

Some captains, as Mush Morton, ordered the supply and tech guys to double check every torp before loading them to his sub, after apparently "missing" around 10 of 14 shots.

So, as other skippers did, Im sticking to old but reliables mk10s for now.

[Jungman]

1) One idea to get around this, is to take the Mark 18 torpedo and turn it into a 'Contact Only' Mark 14. As you said, the data for the premature explosion due to magnetic can be nullified. You may want to reduce the MaxEF some due to the fact a pure contact does less damage than a true under the keel exploding Magnetic which is not really modelled in the game anyway. Or give the magnetics a larger explosion radius, which is what it is doing, more damage to the ship.

So you would haver two types of mark 14, one contact only and more reliable but less damage per se; and the more unreliable magnetic but has a potential to do much more damage.

I do not know how to add a new torpedo, but the game AI does not care about the Mark 18 electric, since the AI does not 'see the bubble wake' and steer clear, or DD homing in on your position.

I real life, mark 18 was used especially during the day to shoot a ship being more stealthy. But in game the AI does not care. So make a mod with Contact Mark 14 , and Magnetic Mark 14.

just an idea. I really hoped it would have been fixed in 1.3

2) Last easy idea is to make the Mark 23 available from the get go start of war and pretend it is a Mark 14 contact only, which it is BTY and more reliable. Mark 23 is contact only and no (less) chance to premature detenation. Make them cost renown since you are disobeying orders by disable the magnetic exploder which some captains did despite what SubPak ordered. Reflects your disobaying orders.

How reliable are the magnetic exploders in the game? Do they fail often or is it a (near) 100% hit rate?

In my test, if the magnetic made it to the target, they explode very well ignoring the failure rate of the contact pin towards 90 AOB. But fail the magnetic influence did alot just getting there, look inside the .sim file while getting to the target. Now if they did, you got a big bang under the keel and that should be reflected in a larger explosion radius. It would be a gamble and make the game more interesting, though you must role play the torpedos a bit (no way to select the setting).

But for real life simulation, I do agree with the above posters...makes no difference if you are obaying orders.

[XanderF]

Originally Posted by Jungman

2) Last easy idea is to make the Mark 23 available from the get go start of war and pretend it is a Mark 14 contact only, which it is BTY and more reliable. Mark 23 is contact only and no (less) chance to premature detenation. Make them cost renown since you are disobeying orders by disable the magnetic exploder which some captains did despite what SubPak ordered. Reflects your disobaying orders.

I actually like that idea - including the concept of it 'costing renown' to do it, as it does reflect disobeying orders.

I also agree that the switch-that-does-nothing is kind of silly in this context. First off, the idea you could toggle between 'magnetic' or 'impact' in a switch in the con seems somewhat ahistorical, anyway - they had to take the torpedo apart to change that setting, didn't they? So we shouldn't have the switch to begin with. As an indicator, it would be handy (so you could remember which tube you put magnetics in and which are contact-only), but...maybe even that is not necessary. If we modded the torpedoes in the game to have a separate "Mark 14 contact" and "Mark 14 magnetic", that would presumably show in the inventory, so you could see which is where.

Hmmm....I really like this idea!

EDIT: It would be worth pointing out that, pre-1943, it's buying the contacts that costs you renown, and post-1943, it's buying the magnetic Mark 14s that cost you renown - as the choice that is disobeying orders changes.

Nomad - did you have a chance to test the other torpedoes? Mark 18s, for example? How do these behave?

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by XanderF

Nomad - did you have a chance to test the other torpedoes? Mark 18s, for example? How do these behave?

Not yet, but not for lack of trying: I haven't been able to figure out a way to begin a mission with anything other than Mark14 torpedos loaded. I've been using a modified version of the 'torpedo attack' submarine school mission to run my tests, with a 'Large Modern Composite Freighter' running at 1 knot to provide an easy target.

Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to change the torpedo loadout the player starts with in the Mission Editor. If anyone knows or can figure out how to do this, I would love to test the other torpedo types for comparison.

nomad_delta

[Bando]

Funny thing is....At the MK10 you can also select mag/contact. This was a contact torpedo.

Don't know why it's in there.

Nomad, when you're looking at the torpedo files, you may want to take a look at the explosive poweras as well.
I've done that recently and found the explosive powers of the MK27 (about 43 Kg of torpex) compared to the MK 14 (about 300 Kg of torpex) a bit too much.
I went out to search the internet to find the actual explosive warhead and this made me to believe I'd have to tweak the torpedo files, which I did for my own use and to test. I haven't got much time lately, so a second opinion would be welcomed.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

Initially, the magnetic exploders were seen by the US Navy as a secret weapon that would give the US a significant advantage.

:rotfl:

That's great! The Germans had been using them since 1939, and suffered similar problems. So of course we had a "secret weapon".

Originally Posted by XanderF

I actually like that idea - including the concept of it 'costing renown' to do it, as it does reflect disobeying orders.

I don't, but only because they didn't tell anybody they were disobeying orders, so you shouldn't get caught doing it. A better idea might be to be able to do it if you have a COB with high enough qualifications; but then people would just make sure they had a Chief with those quals, and again defeat the purpose.

So maybe you're right after all.

The biggest problem with games is gamers...

[PepsiCan]

These are all valid and good ideas, but the fact is that there is a big chance that the malfunctioning of the detonator switch is in the code. So, without a patch there is no way this can be fixed.

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

These are all valid and good ideas, but the fact is that there is a big chance that the malfunctioning of the detonator switch is in the code. So, without a patch there is no way this can be fixed.

Based on everything I've seen and tried changing in torpedoes_us.sim and dials.cfg to fix this, it's certainly looking like the problem is in the EXE and not in the "moddable" files. One of the devs said they would look into it, so I'm going to be patient and see what they say. If it's fixable either with or without a patch, I'm sure they'd know how to do it more readily than we would. All of my knowledge about how the .sim and .cfg files are used by the game comes through trial an error... usually heavy on the 'error' part.

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Thanks for the testing Nomad_Delta, did you notice if the reliability of torpedoes was changed in 1.3?

I haven't done specific comparison testing of 1.2 vs. 1.3 for reliability yet, but what I can tell you is that the "torpedoes_us.sim" file was not changed at all in patch 1.3. Since all known values affecting torpedo reliability are contained within this file, I think it's pretty safe to say that torpedo reliability has not been changed in patch 1.3.

I have done some specific reliability testing in patch 1.3 that you might find interesting, though. I've started a new "Q&A" thread so I'll have someplace to collect my thoughts & conclusions from testing, so if you have any other questions post 'em there and if I find 'em interesting enough I'll add 'em to my list to investigate:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ighlight=nomad

nomad_delta

[TriskettheKid]

But that's what I'm confused about.

If they are all set to Magnetic, and duds are turned off, then all should detonate the way he showed.

However, I have not heard about how many actually went through and made contact. If, for example, not a single torp managed to contact with the ship, then I'd think there was a problem. But from my own experience, and even from what I've seen in some of these topics, you can still get hits via contact.

So I want to know how many shots actually made contact before detonating.

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by TriskettheKid

But that's what I'm confused about.

If they are all set to Magnetic, and duds are turned off, then all should detonate the way he showed.

However, I have not heard about how many actually went through and made contact. If, for example, not a single torp managed to contact with the ship, then I'd think there was a problem. But from my own experience, and even from what I've seen in some of these topics, you can still get hits via contact.

So I want to know how many shots actually made contact before detonating.

The normal 'magnetic detonation radius' is set to 2 meters in stock SH4, so torpedos can get quite close to the ships and look like they're contacting, while still detonating via magnetic @ about 2 meters away.

In the test video, I specifically set the 'magnetic detonation radius' value to a highly exaggerated value of 50 meters so that there would be no question as to whether the torpedo actually touched the ship.

I've run dozens of tests like this, and not a single one of the 'contact' torpedos "got through" past the 50 meter mark and actually touched the ship. Every single one exploded at 50 meters.

nomad_delta

[joea]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

These are all valid and good ideas, but the fact is that there is a big chance that the malfunctioning of the detonator switch is in the code. So, without a patch there is no way this can be fixed.

But should it be fixed? Weren't they broken IRL?

[UnSalted]

You tell the crew "Fire" and let fate take it's course. If you want guaranteed hits, surface, close t0 500 yards and wail away with the deck guns. But first make sure it's not the Yamato you surface beside.

[PepsiCan]

Originally Posted by joea

But should it be fixed? Weren't they broken IRL?

My comment wasn't about the torpedo but about a switch in the torpedo setup screen (the screen where you also set the spread angle and depth). You can set the switch to either Contact or Contact Influence. Nomad_delta has shown that switch not to work in the game. So, in the game there is no choice as to whether you want to fire your torpedoes using the magnetic exploders or not. Players see a switch but it doesn't work. Instead, there is a hardcoded date in one of the sim files that turns the magnetic exploder on or off, regardless of the choice the player has made.