Poland vs. Germany

Originally Posted by Hitman

Errr well I thought the United States was made up of many states each with its own democratically elected governments. Why is it necessary to impose an umbrella gov't over those that already exist?

Probably the answer is more or less the same....at a certain point it was felt that being bigger and more powerful was better...and someone had to organize that. Yet of course with the USA it was way easier, due to many historical and cultural reasons (And even so a civil war happened :hmm: )


Back to the topic: Poland is certainly one the nations who has had it more difficult in history: Being between the germans and the russians was really no pleasing situation in the past. But what the linked article says is plain and simply ridiculous. Hopefully, as Skybird says, these guys are not really representative of the polish people

Thanks Hitman. But don't European nations also have states/provinces/cantons/autonomous communities etc? Just seems like an extra umbrella gov't which is unnecessary and allows one set of countries to be in charge of another set. Seems to be an attempt to remove the governed from the process of government. Which ain't very democratic. I may have to side with the Poles and Brits on this one.

[Heibges]

I'm not saying the statement by the Polish Governent is a little out there, but Germans are naive if they think everyone is going to just forgive and forget.

Just look at the dehumanizing fashion they are portrayed in "Saving Private Ryan".

But the Poles collaborated vigorously, exterminating those folks in those Concentration Camps in southern Poland so part of that is their fault. Plus, didn't the Poles have a Pogrom against the remaining Jews in Poland in 1947?

Basically, I could care less what the Soviets did to any of those Nazi Collaborating countries in Eastern Europe. I say they got off easy.

[geetrue]

They should rename EU European Union to UE United Europe and be like the United States in it's behaviour to each other.

The south tolerates the north and the midwest puts up with the east and the southwest has it's own flavor with the west being the long haired hippies and the wacko's and the weed heads of Ameica.

Hey! We all get along it's ya'll's turn

edit: almost forgot ... you could put Tony Blair in charge of it lol

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by geetrue

edit: almost forgot ... you could put Tony Blair in charge of it lol

No, word is that as europe's new special envoy he is getting the Middle East to enlighten it with his foreignpolitical brilliance and ingenious foresight.

Why do politicians whose terms are ending or who were voted out of office - so often seem to fall the stairs upwards? Doesn't a failed vote, for example, mean that the man in question is expected NOT to continue, instead of continuing?

[tycho102]

We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in World War II, says Polish PM

Yeah, and Stalin didn't do you any favors at Katyn.

[Hitman]

[QUOTE]Thanks Hitman. But don't European nations also have states/provinces/cantons/autonomous communities etc? Just seems like an extra umbrella gov't which is unnecessary and allows one set of countries to be in charge of another set. /QUOTE]

Well, yes, and so do the USA have counties below the states ... lower administrative divisions are also necessary:hmm: . But yes, europe carries to the Union the sudivisions of the states and that is too much You dientified very correctly on of the main problems: Excess bureaucracy. Unfortunately the enormous amount of ethnic/cultural groups favours this inmesely, specially in nations that have other nation-alikes inside (Even with different language), like us in Spain:

Currently we have these administrative divisions, from closer to farther away from the citizen (And all financed by our taxes ):

-The local administration (The "Major" house in english?)
-The Province
-The Autonomic Community (More or less like a State of the USA)
-The State (Spain)
-The EU

Almost to turn anyone mad....

Seems to be an attempt to remove the governed from the process of government. Which ain't very democratic. I may have to side with the Poles and Brits on this one

Sure...anything that puts the centres of decissions and power at a higher distance from the citizen is bad I personally don't like the EU as it is currently focused. I would prefer just a economic union, but no attempt to have a common military politic or such. Because it tends tend up like the UN, as too many different interests collide and in the end nobody wants to clean the house.

[quote=Hitman]

Thanks Hitman. But don't European nations also have states/provinces/cantons/autonomous communities etc? Just seems like an extra umbrella gov't which is unnecessary and allows one set of countries to be in charge of another set. /QUOTE]

Well, yes, and so do the USA have counties below the states ... lower administrative divisions are also necessary:hmm: . But yes, europe carries to the Union the sudivisions of the states and that is too much You dientified very correctly on of the main problems: Excess bureaucracy. Unfortunately the enormous amount of ethnic/cultural groups favours this inmesely, specially in nations that have other nation-alikes inside (Even with different language), like us in Spain:

Currently we have these administrative divisions, from closer to farther away from the citizen (And all financed by our taxes ):

-The local administration (The "Major" house in english?)
-The Province
-The Autonomic Community (More or less like a State of the USA)
-The State (Spain)
-The EU

Almost to turn anyone mad....

Sure...anything that puts the centres of decissions and power at a higher distance from the citizen is bad I personally don't like the EU as it is currently focused. I would prefer just a economic union, but no attempt to have a common military politic or such. Because it tends tend up like the UN, as too many different interests collide and in the end nobody wants to clean the house.

Sonds like we are in agreement on the most basic issue Hitman. That is, if I interpret you correctly, the government eliminating the will of the governed is not democracy. Like I stated earlier as a free trade zone the EU is top notch. All the citizens enjoy its fruits.

Why doesn't the populace rise up and demand democratic responsibility from their elected officials? In the US we have this type of thing going on with an immigration bill. For the last two weeks I have called my elected representative and called for its defeat. I am very angry that they still plan to shove it down our throats.

[XabbaRus]

The Kaczynski twins at it again. From all the stuff I have read about them they are the most creepy leaders I have heard of. also it is very iffy how they both got into the numer 1 and 2 positions.

Which one is the potato? I sure do get fed up of them playing the victim for everything.

[Hitman]

Why doesn't the populace rise up and demand democratic responsibility from their elected officials? In the US we have this type of thing going on with an immigration bill. For the last two weeks I have called my elected representative and called for its defeat. I am very angry that they still plan to shove it down our throats.

Every system and culture has its strengths and its weaknesses. The US were founded as a democracy, the states in europe not. And that can be seen in many details. For example its is not strange that in the US the senators of the same party as the president vote against his proposals if they really think they are not for the benefit of their electors. Representation of the voters is much better in the US, and I envy how your candidates and elected representants have always somehow a path open for the electors to talk to them. Here in Europe it is unfortunately mainly a matter of parties and the individual elected representants don't have much freedom of vote. This is therefore IMO not a democracy but a oligarchy of parties. On the other hand the US system also has its weaknesses (Above all the problem that winning elections is many times a matter of money, plain and simply, due to the costs of the campaign), but overall I would prefer a "Presidential" one like yours or the french one instead of what we have in Spain, for example .

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by Hitman

(Above all the problem that winning elections is many times a matter of money, plain and simply, due to the costs of the campaign)

It's only because we've been letting them get away with it. With the financial costs being what they are it has urned into much of a party oligarchy as well between Democrats and Republicans (not that party labels really mean anything anymore since the politicians have all become chronic liars).

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

It's only because we've been letting them get away with it. With the financial costs being what they are it has urned into much of a party oligarchy as well between Democrats and Republicans (not that party labels really mean anything anymore since the politicians have all become chronic liars).

Thats one of the weaknesses of the American political system I think. Since its a dyed in the blood two party system it means that there is no way for anyone to vote strategically or for there to be a reason for the Dems to actually be left of centre since theres a pinko-commie party that might get all the lefty votes.

I'm not trying to sound like a left wing nut here, but lately the Dems seem to be trying to be really ineffective Republicans, like they're trying to woo people by representing a similar platform to the Republicans while not being true to either side. And they aren't making any kind of stand in the Congress liked everyone hoped.

I'm not saying that a multi-party system is perfect but it can be better keeping parties competitive.

[Skybird]

I think one needs to see the difference between political system's paper form and the sad reality. Both in Europe and America I see that in the modern present the intended values of constitutions are being dangerously outweighed by the results of processes that maybe are inevitably linked to these systems and are expression of the inner dynamic of ever changing realities. In both spheres, internationalisation of the economies (that by that avoid being controlled and being hold accountable from national and governmental institutions), as well as a far-reaching entanglement of capital and politics have seriously distorted the ideas of the various interpretations of what democracy is about, at the same time defending and hiding behind references to what in dead words is written in constitutions, but already is hollowed out and only an instrument of cloaking plutocratic interests. Various places of the world still vary in the degrees of freedoms the individual has, in that the West still scores a bit better than for example China (state tyranny) or Africa (limitations of freedom due to corruption and material poverty). Nevertheless I must see there is not a single country in the West anymore that I would see as a democracy. Political parties since long have taken over, placing their power interests above the interests of the communities they were meant to serve. Even unions suffer from this cancer-like disease. In a democracy, to function properly, the people need to act reasonable, and politics need to remain independent from economy interest and business lobbies. Both conditions are not fulfilled. So, to slightly vary a famous quote by - I think - Churchill, and to add to his original quote, "the best reason that speaks against democracy are the political parties themselves".

On the topic, I heared on radio this morning that Blair and the twins still remain adamant. I hope it stays like that, so that the treaty is killed. Only two things I see in urgent need: a reform of the voting mode, and replacing the three major responsible representatives for EU foreign political contacts with just one official's post (as it was said on TV yesterday, Kissinger, when being in office, always asked himself whose telephone number to pick when needing to telephone the EU). The rest of the treaty can - and should - be thrown into the dustbin. Unfortunately, the reform of the voting mode that I want is what the Polish are blocking, so maybe we even do not get this. If this is the price for preventing the treaty as a whole, I accept to pay it. Better no treaty than a bad one. Because without doubt there will be a third attempt anytime soon, but after two failures there is hope that this time they will not try to save the unchanged core of the old constitution draft, but will really exclusively focus on what can be realistically achieved, and is pragmatic. This dreamdancing about federalist structures needs to come to a stop. I stick to deGaulle here, and would be satisfied with a "Europe of cooperating fatherlands". Since Brussels power for the main rests on a bureaucracy (that is small in size, nevertheless seeks more and more power for itself), and already today any demands by Brussels all too often get fulfilled by parliaments without checking for compatibility with national constitutions and parliamentary policies (which makes national elections somewhat useless, doesn't it, and that way effectively kills democracy), and since Brussels better part of power has no democratic legitimation expressed by the will and deed of the European peoples, I do not wish Brussels being given even more powers, and already a card blanche to overrule national parliaments by decrees being produced by a bureaucracy that - like every bureaucracy - tends to grow in size, and tends to produce decrees on and on for the simple reason to keep itself alive and giving the impression that life without it is no longer possible.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Thanks Hitman. But don't European nations also have states/provinces/cantons/autonomous communities etc? Just seems like an extra umbrella gov't which is unnecessary and allows one set of countries to be in charge of another set. Seems to be an attempt to remove the governed from the process of government. Which ain't very democratic. I may have to side with the Poles and Brits on this one.

That 'umbrella' could be usefull coping with coming economic giants (China, India, perhaps Brazil ), or even the US?