USS Liberty - Page 2

The Avon Lady · 06-10-07, 05:01 AM

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Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

While it would be really really hard to misidentify an 8,000 ton ship, it is possible.

You're in a war where the existance of your country is at stake. You scramble. You're told its an enemy ship. You don't see a flag and you misread the marking. The ship is located exactly where reported and there's not another one in site.

For everyone else the "fog of war" is OK but it can't be here?

I never ruled out fog of war, in fact I think that's the most likey explanation by a wide margin.

I was elaborating your point, not questioning you.

Sorry, fog of war got me. Just assumed the Avon Lady was being argumentative.

NO I WAS NOT!

Takeda Shingen · 06-10-07, 06:48 AM

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Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

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Originally Posted by stabiz

Not very strange that Israelis writes this up as an accident.

Brilliant logic of proof of guilt here.

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Personally I lean towards stupidity and arrogance.

Look.

In.

Mirror.

No.

Personal.

Attacks.

Thanks,
The Management

Jimbuna · 06-10-07, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABBAFAN

This "war machine" was it on different subjects every issue and lots of line drawings of planes tanks ships etc and cvcame in a blue binder?
i have a book of magazines like rthis i got it in southampton in 1992 id love to get more copies of it.

Yeah that sounds like the one... the binder is blue and the lettering is gold and outlined in red

I'm gonna look through them and scan the USS Liberty section

Lurchi · 06-10-07, 07:59 AM

Identifying a ship from a fast moving plane is very difficult - especially by fighter-bomber pilots who aren't trained for this.

On the other hand:
Why were the Fast attack boats unable to identify it?
Why noone asked the for the reason why this unidentified ship didn't fight back?
Why wasn't this -obviously defenseless- ship contacted by those attack boats who were seemingly close enough to shoot at it with guns?

A ship with so much antennas and cupolas could only belong to the U.S. or the U.S.S.R. as it was clearly a reconnaissance ship. Personally i believe the israeli commanders knew very well what they are doing: The ship was well known before and the only reason for the attack i can imagine is that they didn't want the U.S. to gain information about their tactics ...

Many friendly fire incidents were pretty short encounters - however, this one was not: First the planes and then torpedo boats attacked half an hour later which placed a torpedo into the Liberty's side.

Looks pretty much like a planned and coordinated attack to me.

Jimbuna · 06-10-07, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

Identifying a ship from a fast moving plane is very difficult - especially by fighter-bomber pilots who aren't trained for this.

On the other hand:
Why were the Fast attack boats unable to identify it?
Why noone asked the for the reason why this unidentified ship didn't fight back?
Why wasn't this -obviously defenseless- ship contacted by those attack boats who were seemingly close enough to shoot at it with guns?

A ship with so much antennas and cupolas could only belong to the U.S. or the U.S.S.R. as it was clearly a reconnaissance ship. Personally i believe the israeli commanders knew very well what they are doing: The ship was well known before and the only reason for the attack i can imagine is that they didn't want the U.S. to gain information about their tactics ...

Many friendly fire incidents were pretty short encounters - however, this one was not: First the planes and then torpedo boats attacked half an hour later which placed a torpedo into the Liberty's side.

Looks pretty much like a planned and coordinated attack to me.

I have a tendancy to agree with you there

The Avon Lady · 06-10-07, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

Identifying a ship from a fast moving plane is very difficult - especially by fighter-bomber pilots who aren't trained for this.

On the other hand:
Why were the Fast attack boats unable to identify it?

Damage, heavy smoke, the Liberty fired upon them, keeping them at range. The Liberty signal-identified itself as "AA", the same signal given by an Egyptian warship that attacked Israel and evaded Israel's navy in 1956.

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Why noone asked the for the reason why this unidentified ship didn't fight back?

But the Liberty did, during the torpedo boats' approaches.

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Why wasn't this -obviously defenseless- ship contacted by those attack boats who were seemingly close enough to shoot at it with guns?

But it was.

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A ship with so much antennas and cupolas could only belong to the U.S. or the U.S.S.R. as it was clearly a reconnaissance ship.

In fact, it was assumed to be Russian and that was due to the blunder of the Israelis not recognizing the Latin letters on the hull.

Everything I say above is from the 2002 IAF report on the Liberty incident. Sorry, it's in Hebrew. Yes, I know some of you want me to spend days translating it for you. Cannot do.

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Personally i believe the israeli commanders knew very well what they are doing: The ship was well known before

According to all documented reports, the last thing that entered any Israeli commander's mind was that there was a US ship - of any kind - in the area, which was an assumed battle zone, as Israeli ground forces in El Arish, Sinai, reported prior to the attack that they were being shelled, possibly from the sea.

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and the only reason for the attack i can imagine is that they didn't want the U.S. to gain information about their tactics ...

Baseless.

And when you add such baseless to the fact the you didn't get any of your main facts above correct, the whole picture is one of simply a war tragedy that could have happened to anyone under such circumstances.

Quote:

Many friendly fire incidents were pretty short encounters - however, this one was not: First the planes and then torpedo boats attacked half an hour later which placed a torpedo into the Liberty's side.

Looks pretty much like a planned and coordinated attack to me.

It was very well coordinated. That does not detract from the fact that Israel only realized their mistake after the attack was over and the damage was done.

joea · 06-10-07, 09:16 AM

Well sh&* happens in war, if someone made a list of all the friendly fire incidents in war it could fill a book. Hey the IAF is very efficient and some of the most skilled pilots in the world today.

So was the Luftwaffe in it's time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wikinger

Bombed Dublin too IIRC. :hmm:

No political connotations intended.

Tronics · 06-10-07, 09:29 AM

Most modern blue v blue incidents are a caused by poor communications...period.

80% of US FF incidents unfortunately involve other NATO constituitents, this is partly because of the complete unfettered chaos and lack of discipline that is and revolves around NATO communications protocols.

And no it's not the US Army messing it up...CANFORCE (blame Canada?) comms make the US ARMY communications disaster seem like a heated debate on the metaphysical clauses of Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

The remaining 20% involves US forces hitting themselves because again, someone isn't where they said they were, or aren't following their orders....which leads yet again to communications.

Personally I don't think that the Israeli military made a conscious decision to hit a US Electroinc Warfare vessel.

It dosen't strike me that Israel would bite the hand that feeds intentionally and just to mess up some intel gathering or porbing operaton.

I think that probably someone in a cockpit made that decision because they heard what they wanted to hear, or at least they thought they did, and who knows maybe they did hear it correctly and the comms operator was the one who heard wrong...

Only one person really knows and they have to live with it for the remainder of their days.

Jimbuna · 06-10-07, 12:11 PM

The 'War Machine' USS Liberty section

http://files.filefront.com/USS_Liber.../fileinfo.html

The Avon Lady · 06-10-07, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The 'War Machine' USS Liberty section

http://files.filefront.com/USS_Liber.../fileinfo.html

I'm out for the evening but from a cursory glance, the details in this article versus those documented by the IAF are different in so many ways.

And the devil's in the details.

Jimbuna · 06-10-07, 12:44 PM

There are so many different versions out there I prefer to leave it to the individual to reach their own conclusion

PeriscopeDepth · 06-10-07, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

The ship was well known before and the only reason for the attack i can imagine is that they didn't want the U.S. to gain information about their tactics ...

Then they probably shouldn't be training together all the time and sharing intelligence, either.

PD

stabiz · 06-10-07, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by stabiz

Not very strange that Israelis writes this up as an accident.

Brilliant logic of proof of guilt here.

Quote:

Personally I lean towards stupidity and arrogance.

Look.

In.

Mirror.

:rotfl:Not a very surprising response. Maybe the dominant child inside you needs a hug.

Jimbuna · 06-10-07, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

The ship was well known before and the only reason for the attack i can imagine is that they didn't want the U.S. to gain information about their tactics ...

Then they probably shouldn't be training together all the time and sharing intelligence, either.

PD

My own teke on it was at the time....the Americans were under pressure from around the world to reign the Israelis in...but the Israelis had the upper hand in the fighting and needed to buy time to achieve their military objectives...it was not in their interests to let the Americans know how well things were going

robbo180265 · 06-10-07, 03:43 PM

In all honesty this is the first I've heard of this incident,but as has been said earlier these things happen fairly often in war,those poor A10 pilots not so long ago spring to mind.

I wouldn't put it past any country to organise an accident,if that country stood to gain from it. But as far as I can see Israel could have lost a lot,and stood to gain little from it.

So I reckon it was probably an accident.

View Poll Results: WAS it a
mistake on Israels part	12	41.38%
ordered by US hawks in order to embroil US in war	1	3.45%
Done by israel alone for same purpose	16	55.17%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

06-10-07, 12:11 PM	#24
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,829 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	The 'War Machine' USS Liberty section http://files.filefront.com/USS_Liber.../fileinfo.html __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

06-10-07, 12:44 PM	#26
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,829 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	There are so many different versions out there I prefer to leave it to the individual to reach their own conclusion __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

06-10-07, 07:59 AM	#19
Lurchi Planesman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wilhelmshaven, Germany Posts: 181 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Identifying a ship from a fast moving plane is very difficult - especially by fighter-bomber pilots who aren't trained for this. On the other hand: Why were the Fast attack boats unable to identify it? Why noone asked the for the reason why this unidentified ship didn't fight back? Why wasn't this -obviously defenseless- ship contacted by those attack boats who were seemingly close enough to shoot at it with guns? A ship with so much antennas and cupolas could only belong to the U.S. or the U.S.S.R. as it was clearly a reconnaissance ship. Personally i believe the israeli commanders knew very well what they are doing: The ship was well known before and the only reason for the attack i can imagine is that they didn't want the U.S. to gain information about their tactics ... Many friendly fire incidents were pretty short encounters - however, this one was not: First the planes and then torpedo boats attacked half an hour later which placed a torpedo into the Liberty's side. Looks pretty much like a planned and coordinated attack to me.

06-10-07, 09:16 AM	#22
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Well sh&* happens in war, if someone made a list of all the friendly fire incidents in war it could fill a book. Hey the IAF is very efficient and some of the most skilled pilots in the world today. So was the Luftwaffe in it's time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wikinger Bombed Dublin too IIRC. :hmm: No political connotations intended.

06-10-07, 09:29 AM	#23
Tronics A-ganger Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 78 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	Most modern blue v blue incidents are a caused by poor communications...period. 80% of US FF incidents unfortunately involve other NATO constituitents, this is partly because of the complete unfettered chaos and lack of discipline that is and revolves around NATO communications protocols. And no it's not the US Army messing it up...CANFORCE (blame Canada?) comms make the US ARMY communications disaster seem like a heated debate on the metaphysical clauses of Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The remaining 20% involves US forces hitting themselves because again, someone isn't where they said they were, or aren't following their orders....which leads yet again to communications. Personally I don't think that the Israeli military made a conscious decision to hit a US Electroinc Warfare vessel. It dosen't strike me that Israel would bite the hand that feeds intentionally and just to mess up some intel gathering or porbing operaton. I think that probably someone in a cockpit made that decision because they heard what they wanted to hear, or at least they thought they did, and who knows maybe they did hear it correctly and the comms operator was the one who heard wrong... Only one person really knows and they have to live with it for the remainder of their days.

06-10-07, 03:43 PM	#30
robbo180265 Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brighton, England.Party capital of the south Posts: 2,255 Downloads: 126 Uploads: 0	In all honesty this is the first I've heard of this incident,but as has been said earlier these things happen fairly often in war,those poor A10 pilots not so long ago spring to mind. I wouldn't put it past any country to organise an accident,if that country stood to gain from it. But as far as I can see Israel could have lost a lot,and stood to gain little from it. So I reckon it was probably an accident.