Shame on these people

AntEater · 06-02-07, 02:35 PM

In contrary to the US, Riots are not uncommon in Germany.
There exists a bunch of radical elements who hijack pretty much every public demonstration.
I don't really share the criticism of the (peaceful) protesters against the G8 summit, but the curtailing of civil liberties, the "Baltic wall" around Heiligendamm and the general behaviour of our internal security services angers me.
Keep in mind there were about 25000 peaceful protesters whose organisation cooperated with the police, while there were at most 2000 violent "protesters".
The Meck/Pomm police actually was quite smart in dealing with peaceful and violent protesters quite seperately.

What angered me were the curtailing of civil liberties and the security measures for Heiligendamm, most of which are according to US demands. According to various reports, the fence and the whole security scheme is basically there to satisfy the secret service.
Neither Putin nor Sarkozy nor Blair nor any other head of state demands such high security and there have been meetings of a similar number of EU head of states without such a backfall to GDR times.
I often wonder why there has been such high security for a US president in a foreign country (which is not exactly indian territory unless a US president visits it) while security in a country where pretty much everybody is armed (his own) the security measures are much more relaxed.
I suppose it is some kind of perverse power demonstration that the US is able to shut down all normal life in a country for a simple state visit.
Apparently the only country a US president could currently visit without any drastic change in Orwellian direction is Iraq, where everything would just stay the same.
I suppose the best way to deal with the diplomatic obligations of the US would be either to convert an aircraft carrier into a floating diplomatic base or do it like Saddam and use Doppelgängers for state visits. Not that anyone would notice the difference anyway...

Skybird · 06-02-07, 03:54 PM

Well, the Secret Service is known for naturally assuming that foreign nations are it's personal property. Last time Bush was in Germany, some years ago, the clashes between the BKA and the Secret Service were said to have been short of turnin violant behind the curtains, so to speak. German BKA officials were said to be so upset about the ever more far leading demands by the Americans that they recommended to throw them out and scratch the presidential vist from the list. Bush wasn't wanted by residents and Germans anyway. When he drove through the city, people had to stay away from windows - in their own homes. The scenes looked like ghost towns, or what somtimes was to seen in Eastern-European countries during the Soviet era when a high-ranking political convoy was racing through a city. I wonder what the use of such stunts should be. PR-wise, last time it was a desaster. I personally think that a foreign guest whose bodyguards behave as if the hosting nation is theirs, would not be missed if he stays were he is - as far away as possible.

Rostock is calm now - with 13.000 riot police in town, they said in "Heute Journal". Two things are quite obvious: first, that today'S riots were started by the so-called autonomous block who afterwards were sick enough to say they had been provoked, and second that the organizers of the intended peaceful rallies and demonstrations do not really know what many kinds of guests they are hosting, and that they do not have them under control.

I wish Bush would have stayed away, he is not welcomed here and he will not be anything more than a roadblock anyway.

BTW, riots are not typical for Germany, the wild years have been the late 60s of which I have no memory, and the 80s which I expreinced in Berlin, and compared to that they are rare these days. They appear throughout Europe with the exception of the scandinavia countries, my impression is. Often, football and holligans have something to do with the trouble.

06-02-07, 04:03 PM

I see this thread has turned into another bash the US screed from the usual suspects.

AntEater · 06-02-07, 04:23 PM

Not really anti-americanism. Just saying that the US should get to a slightly more relaxed approach on such matters. Germany is not indian territory (in a John Wayne sense) and german security forces are quite capable.

But as I said, both the leaders of the peaceful protests as well as the local police commanders reacted quite well, it seems. But 30000+ protesters plus 13000 police is quite a lot for such a small town as Rostock, and more protesters are coming.
Actually the peaceful side of that anti-summit campaign seems to turn into some kind of baltic Woodstock. Quite a few people I know are on their way there and maybe I would've gone myself if I didnt have to work.
In a navy context, a german navy minesweeper blew up a WW2 magnetic mine off Heiligendamm this morning. At least the navy gets the opportunity to do something worthwile on their time and clean the baltic from such leftovers

06-02-07, 04:35 PM

Based on the news out of Germany regarding this it sounds like 'indian territory' to me. The summit hasn't even started and the German authorities are already overwhelmed. Common sense seems to dictate a more robust approach to these 'people'.

NefariousKoel · 06-02-07, 04:41 PM

Ahhh... Liberals getting violent. An increasing trend.

The new Bolshevik revolution?

Lurchi · 06-02-07, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...]Last time Bush was in Germany, some years ago, the clashes between the BKA and the Secret Service were said to have been short of turnin violant behind the curtains, so to speak. German BKA officials were said to be so upset about the ever more far leading demands by the Americans that they recommended to throw them out and scratch the presidential vist from the list.

From what i've heard the exact opposite was true: It were the german authorities who had completely overdone this whole security thing - even the secret service personnel shook their head over the native genius who decided to close down a complete freeway junction which led to complete chaos. Bush obviously wasn't too amused when he was driven through Ghosttowns which was the exact opposite from the visits of Ronald Reagan or -especially- John F. Kennedy (

) who were cheered by the population.

One must admit that the U.S. President is the most endangered person on this G-8 summit - the long list of killed Presidents is proof enough. It doesn't matter if one likes Bush or not, he is an elected leader and a guest in our country - he should be welcomed and treated as such, all necessary security measures included.

I also think that violent riots become a sport here - last week there was one on the occasion of the ASEM summit in Hamburg.

06-02-07, 04:57 PM

The last two G8 summits here in the US had none of this violence.

I remember the summit here in Denver in 1997. There were some traffic issues as the leaders moved around but no violent protests.

The conclusion I make is that if you put a mask on during a protest in this country you are going to get more than water shot at you.........real consequences for actions.

fatty · 06-02-07, 05:12 PM

My city hosted the G7 (before Russia joined and made it the G8) in '95. I was young but my older sister worked as an interpreter for the Russian delegates. It was a pretty jubilant time - a hell of a lot of partying at all hours of the night. I think the favour of certain leaders present does make a difference.

mapuc · 06-02-07, 05:13 PM

To Neal:

Open fire, well many danish citizen said the same, when the danish police "clean out" a occupied house On "jagtvej 69"

Those protestan had no sympathy at all.

Markus

Skybird · 06-02-07, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...]Last time Bush was in Germany, some years ago, the clashes between the BKA and the Secret Service were said to have been short of turnin violant behind the curtains, so to speak. German BKA officials were said to be so upset about the ever more far leading demands by the Americans that they recommended to throw them out and scratch the presidential vist from the list.

From what i've heard the exact opposite was true: It were the german authorities who had completely overdone this whole security thing - even the secret service personnel shook their head over the native genius who decided to close down a complete freeway junction which led to complete chaos. Bush obviously wasn't too amused when he was driven through Ghosttowns which was the exact opposite from the visits of Ronald Reagan or -especially- John F. Kennedy (

) who were cheered by the population.

Sorry, but I know that one better, first-hand from a friend of mine who has been associated with the foreign ministry. Sorry that I can't give you the details on him, but he wouldn't like it. I know him from my adventure times - back then he was a freelance correspondent. At least that's what he said. Sometimes I thought that he also was a bit of something different. Which often is difficult to separate in the Middle East.

And since you mentioned the assassinations - how many presidents have been shot in the last decades inside america, by Americans, and how many have been shot by foreigners?

They tried Roosevelt, Ford (now that was really a harmless guy), and Reagan; they succeeded with Kennedy. Noboy tried Nixon, or Bush junior. Hm.

Today'S events have something good: for the next days, the police is warned. I know that during today, additional BGS units have been put on alarm throughout Gemany and got marching order towards Heiligendamm. Officials do not make it a high-profile story.

And while the Nazis were denied to demosntrate in Schwerin, they surprised the police in Berlin and demonstrated there, unhindered and mostly unguarded. Bad failure by the intelligence guys...

06-02-07, 05:49 PM

Check out the photo gallery. These masked thugs are out in the open. If the Germans have any respect for their law and the people sworn to uphold that law they would demand an armed response, a handful of well placed snipers would do the trick. Drop a few and the problem will go away.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...486307,00.html

AntEater · 06-02-07, 06:00 PM

Strange question nobody asks:
Who are these "black block" people?
At Frankfurt University during my "protest" phase (a man who isnt a socialist at 20 has no heart....), I knew pretty much everybody active in student politics on the left side and there were only about half a dozen people who fit into that category.
Where do you get 3000 of those? Hafenstrasse? Kreuzberg? Kreuzberg seems to be more the scene of Jihad than of anarchist violence lately.
Also it is strange that our internal intelligence services seem to do so little about these people. I mean they seem to have infiltrated the neo nazi scene quite well.
Strange about this demonstration was that the protesters I saw on videos seemed almost as well organised and uniformed as the police. You could really tell apart the violent ones from the peaceful ones just by looking at them before even the stones started flying.
Almost like an army.

Regarding shooting, shooting incidents are what turns protest into civil war. If somebody starts shooting, somebody is bound to shoot back eventually.
Politics aside, in a riot situation, I think the use of firearms is totally counterproductive, as the ranges are too close. Unless you use machineguns to mow everybody down (german police had MG 42s until about 1990), you cannot possible shoot them all and you might get rushed by the protesters, who might take guns from police officers and use them against the police. Until some new non lethal weaponry becomes available, tear gas, batons and watercannon are still the weapons of choice.
Also, do you really want to be the police officer who shoots first?
I know a police officer who once shot a guy in a self defense situation and nearly lost his job and his family over it.

And the fact that my government is not willing to gun down people at random for some vague concept as "respect for the law", even violent anarchist at will is the reason I think our constitution and government are worth supporting and worthy of Germany even though I disagree with many decisions the current government has made.

06-02-07, 06:21 PM

Funny I thought that Germany had a representative gov't aka a republic. When these F*ckers disobey the law the are saying the German people are are not worth any respect. If they come from outside the country now you see what its like in Iraq. When you send the message that the consequences for violence are minimal the empowerment is great. I say again kill a few of these would be anarchists and the problem will go away.

The current response makes Germany and the German people look very weak indeed.

P_Funk · 06-02-07, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

Funny I thought that Germany had a representative gov't aka a republic. When these F*ckers disobey the law the are saying the German people are are not worth any respect. If they come from outside the country now you see what its like in Iraq. When you send the message that the consequences for violence are minimal the empowerment is great. I say again kill a few of these would be anarchists and the problem will go away.

Thats right wastegate. The way to get rid of people who don't respect the constitution and the rights and freedoms of others and the society that governs all of those principles is to just ignore those principles and kill them without trial and in a disproportionate response.

People like this show up because of bonehead draconian ideas like that. Its why everytime Israel bombs the Gaza Strip it doesn't make any real difference. Kill a few today and you create a dozen tomorrow. Not to mention the fact that if the police started to kill any and all violent protestors you'd just get more riots over such blatant civil rights abuses and corrupt and out of control police.

Where do you get these ideas from?

06-02-07, 02:35 PM	#1
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	In contrary to the US, Riots are not uncommon in Germany. There exists a bunch of radical elements who hijack pretty much every public demonstration. I don't really share the criticism of the (peaceful) protesters against the G8 summit, but the curtailing of civil liberties, the "Baltic wall" around Heiligendamm and the general behaviour of our internal security services angers me. Keep in mind there were about 25000 peaceful protesters whose organisation cooperated with the police, while there were at most 2000 violent "protesters". The Meck/Pomm police actually was quite smart in dealing with peaceful and violent protesters quite seperately. What angered me were the curtailing of civil liberties and the security measures for Heiligendamm, most of which are according to US demands. According to various reports, the fence and the whole security scheme is basically there to satisfy the secret service. Neither Putin nor Sarkozy nor Blair nor any other head of state demands such high security and there have been meetings of a similar number of EU head of states without such a backfall to GDR times. I often wonder why there has been such high security for a US president in a foreign country (which is not exactly indian territory unless a US president visits it) while security in a country where pretty much everybody is armed (his own) the security measures are much more relaxed. I suppose it is some kind of perverse power demonstration that the US is able to shut down all normal life in a country for a simple state visit. Apparently the only country a US president could currently visit without any drastic change in Orwellian direction is Iraq, where everything would just stay the same. I suppose the best way to deal with the diplomatic obligations of the US would be either to convert an aircraft carrier into a floating diplomatic base or do it like Saddam and use Doppelgängers for state visits. Not that anyone would notice the difference anyway... __________________

06-02-07, 03:54 PM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,688 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Well, the Secret Service is known for naturally assuming that foreign nations are it's personal property. Last time Bush was in Germany, some years ago, the clashes between the BKA and the Secret Service were said to have been short of turnin violant behind the curtains, so to speak. German BKA officials were said to be so upset about the ever more far leading demands by the Americans that they recommended to throw them out and scratch the presidential vist from the list. Bush wasn't wanted by residents and Germans anyway. When he drove through the city, people had to stay away from windows - in their own homes. The scenes looked like ghost towns, or what somtimes was to seen in Eastern-European countries during the Soviet era when a high-ranking political convoy was racing through a city. I wonder what the use of such stunts should be. PR-wise, last time it was a desaster. I personally think that a foreign guest whose bodyguards behave as if the hosting nation is theirs, would not be missed if he stays were he is - as far away as possible. Rostock is calm now - with 13.000 riot police in town, they said in "Heute Journal". Two things are quite obvious: first, that today'S riots were started by the so-called autonomous block who afterwards were sick enough to say they had been provoked, and second that the organizers of the intended peaceful rallies and demonstrations do not really know what many kinds of guests they are hosting, and that they do not have them under control. I wish Bush would have stayed away, he is not welcomed here and he will not be anything more than a roadblock anyway. BTW, riots are not typical for Germany, the wild years have been the late 60s of which I have no memory, and the 80s which I expreinced in Berlin, and compared to that they are rare these days. They appear throughout Europe with the exception of the scandinavia countries, my impression is. Often, football and holligans have something to do with the trouble. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-02-07, 04:23 PM	#4
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Not really anti-americanism. Just saying that the US should get to a slightly more relaxed approach on such matters. Germany is not indian territory (in a John Wayne sense) and german security forces are quite capable. But as I said, both the leaders of the peaceful protests as well as the local police commanders reacted quite well, it seems. But 30000+ protesters plus 13000 police is quite a lot for such a small town as Rostock, and more protesters are coming. Actually the peaceful side of that anti-summit campaign seems to turn into some kind of baltic Woodstock. Quite a few people I know are on their way there and maybe I would've gone myself if I didnt have to work. In a navy context, a german navy minesweeper blew up a WW2 magnetic mine off Heiligendamm this morning. At least the navy gets the opportunity to do something worthwile on their time and clean the baltic from such leftovers __________________

06-02-07, 04:41 PM	#6
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Ahhh... Liberals getting violent. An increasing trend. The new Bolshevik revolution? __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

06-02-07, 06:00 PM	#13
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Strange question nobody asks: Who are these "black block" people? At Frankfurt University during my "protest" phase (a man who isnt a socialist at 20 has no heart....), I knew pretty much everybody active in student politics on the left side and there were only about half a dozen people who fit into that category. Where do you get 3000 of those? Hafenstrasse? Kreuzberg? Kreuzberg seems to be more the scene of Jihad than of anarchist violence lately. Also it is strange that our internal intelligence services seem to do so little about these people. I mean they seem to have infiltrated the neo nazi scene quite well. Strange about this demonstration was that the protesters I saw on videos seemed almost as well organised and uniformed as the police. You could really tell apart the violent ones from the peaceful ones just by looking at them before even the stones started flying. Almost like an army. Regarding shooting, shooting incidents are what turns protest into civil war. If somebody starts shooting, somebody is bound to shoot back eventually. Politics aside, in a riot situation, I think the use of firearms is totally counterproductive, as the ranges are too close. Unless you use machineguns to mow everybody down (german police had MG 42s until about 1990), you cannot possible shoot them all and you might get rushed by the protesters, who might take guns from police officers and use them against the police. Until some new non lethal weaponry becomes available, tear gas, batons and watercannon are still the weapons of choice. Also, do you really want to be the police officer who shoots first? I know a police officer who once shot a guy in a self defense situation and nearly lost his job and his family over it. And the fact that my government is not willing to gun down people at random for some vague concept as "respect for the law", even violent anarchist at will is the reason I think our constitution and government are worth supporting and worthy of Germany even though I disagree with many decisions the current government has made. __________________

06-02-07, 04:03 PM	#3
waste gate Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I see this thread has turned into another bash the US screed from the usual suspects.

06-02-07, 04:35 PM	#5
waste gate Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Based on the news out of Germany regarding this it sounds like 'indian territory' to me. The summit hasn't even started and the German authorities are already overwhelmed. Common sense seems to dictate a more robust approach to these 'people'.

06-02-07, 04:57 PM	#8
waste gate Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	The last two G8 summits here in the US had none of this violence. I remember the summit here in Denver in 1997. There were some traffic issues as the leaders moved around but no violent protests. The conclusion I make is that if you put a mask on during a protest in this country you are going to get more than water shot at you.........real consequences for actions.

06-02-07, 05:12 PM	#9
fatty The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,448 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	My city hosted the G7 (before Russia joined and made it the G8) in '95. I was young but my older sister worked as an interpreter for the Russian delegates. It was a pretty jubilant time - a hell of a lot of partying at all hours of the night. I think the favour of certain leaders present does make a difference.

06-02-07, 05:13 PM	#10
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,543 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	To Neal: Open fire, well many danish citizen said the same, when the danish police "clean out" a occupied house On "jagtvej 69" Those protestan had no sympathy at all. Markus

06-02-07, 05:49 PM	#12
waste gate Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Check out the photo gallery. These masked thugs are out in the open. If the Germans have any respect for their law and the people sworn to uphold that law they would demand an armed response, a handful of well placed snipers would do the trick. Drop a few and the problem will go away. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...486307,00.html

06-02-07, 06:21 PM	#14
waste gate Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Funny I thought that Germany had a representative gov't aka a republic. When these Fckers disobey the law the are saying the German people are are not worth any respect. If they come from outside the country now you see what its like in Iraq. When you send the message that the consequences for violence are minimal the empowerment is great. I say again kill a few of these would be anarchists and the problem will* go away. The current response makes Germany and the German people look very weak indeed.