First convoy SH3/GWX attack - report from AOD player

[Crimguy]

[quote=MarkShot]Well, I have been discussing SH3/GWX versus AOD with someone.

Bottomline: SH3/GWX does a better job of making an attack from inside the convoy very hard. AOD does a much better job of hunting your sub once forced down and scaring the living daylights out of you. To quote part of my discussion:

The bad is that they just don't pose that much of a threat once they have detected me. The first few times, you here "wasserbomben", you think "oh, ****!". But then you realize, they are just large firecrackers

Can't say I disagree with you. The only times I've died are when I've been caught in shallow water, or I did something very stupid. But I've never played past 42. Maybe they get better for the rest of the war, and not merely more numerous?

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Crimguy

Can't say I disagree with you. The only times I've died are when I've been caught in shallow water, or I did something very stupid. But I've never played past 42. Maybe they get better for the rest of the war, and not merely more numerous?

Hi!

Starting in 1943 the escorts get hedgehog ahead-throwing weapons, and advanced sonars that track you right up through the time they shoot the hedgehogs at you. Very nasty, especially if you encounter a hunter-killer group (escort carrier with several destroyers) that has nothing better to do but stick around above you until you run out of battery power and/or oxygen.

Using early-war tactics against these new capabilities is tantamount to suicide.

Pablo

[MarkShot]

Yes, it is only mid-41 for me. As I said escorts and evasion seems no problem for now. However, my attack tactics will require a lot of work as I have yet to put together a decent formula for attacks.

Although finding convoys and setting up for an intercept by racing ahead has been pretty easy. I trailed a convoy all through the night marking its position and was able to easily position for in the morning. There was no course changes over 12 hour period after it made the initial inbound turn in the AM grid.

Yes, I once was screwing around with the game and didn't go deep and fast. Instead I was at around 30-40M and DCs were dropped close. There was an instant hit and death. (Although with so much blue water convoy activity, I cannot imagine myself going into the shallows unless to test myself.)

However, I've been going deep (150-160M) and I have been able to crawl silent at 1kts without DCs rocking the boat. It seems at 2kts they hear you, but a 1kts they don't seem to be able to pin point you.

Perhaps it's the blast radius of the DCs. In SH2 default, there was a huge blast radius. Perhaps, GWX increased escort sensors and toned down DC blast radius. That would be a standard technique in an attempt to create long protracted sub hunts; hunts that run for 4-8 hours as opposed to 1-2 hours. Just some speculation on my part.

---

Well, Pablo, what year does that happen?

Maybe I will just launch a career at that point as I would like to give that a try. Yes, I did read in the sticky something about the early war escort losing contact as they made their run.

[MarkShot]

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

[Crimguy]

The later the better, wouldn't you think? I have a nice career going, and plan on taking it as far as I can. For added challenge, get ahold of a Type IX. They're pretty slow on the dive, so it can make things interesting.

On a side note, I'm watching the BBC documentary Battle of the Atlantic. ONe of the uboat skippers mentions that, of the 20 ships he sank, 19 of them were nighttime, surface attacks. I haven't been able to do a surface attack in GWX unless the weather was pea soup.

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

I have lots of fun in 43/44 when I feel like a real challenge. Just surviving the air attacks (don't forget the planes tell the DD's etc that they have seen you), makes this a most deadly time to be a Kaleun.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Bump - what year should I launch a career to see how hard escort evasion can be?

Thanks.

Try late 43 with that huge old cow (IXD2)

[MarkShot]

Yes, that 3hr Battle of the Atlantic is a great documentary. I also like "The Color of War: The Silent Service" and "The Bowfin - Pearl Harbor Avenger".

I am terrified to even contemplate a night attack in GWX! They spot me just cleaning my eye glasses while submerged in the daytime! Everyone seems to be packing a gun. The escorts stay close to merchant formation. I am really scared to risk my boat like this.

In AOD, overcast/no moon/fog/heavy seas with a few km visibility was great. You would slip between a couple of escorts. You could cruise around inside the convoy looking for the best targets and then put down three big ships and zip back out to safety. Oh, the wonderous night attack!

[Crimguy]

If you have the weather on your side in '40 or '39, you can do the same in SHIII. My first patrol out with GWX I was skimming through a convoy with impunity. Visibility was only about 500m tops, and I was sniping ships at point blank, using the UZO and literally "leading" my targets. Searchlights were all over the place, but the DD's could never get a bead on me. I assume that if I dove they would have picked me up on their passive sonar.

Which brings me to my biggest problem with the ai - it cheats. I can't tell you how many times I've done a long range attack, hit a ship, and immediately find a DD sailing right towards me, or have their searchlights on me. While I can forgive this kind of action during a daylight attack, it makes no sense at all at night and submerged.

Originally Posted by MarkShot

I am terrified to even contemplate a night attack in GWX! They spot me just cleaning my eye glasses while submerged in the daytime! Everyone seems to be packing a gun. The escorts stay close to merchant formation. I am really scared to risk my boat like this.

In AOD, overcast/no moon/fog/heavy seas with a few km visibility was great. You would slip between a couple of escorts. You could cruise around inside the convoy looking for the best targets and then put down three big ships and zip back out to safety. Oh, the wonderous night attack!

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Yes, it is only mid-41 for me. As I said escorts and evasion seems no problem for now. However, my attack tactics will require a lot of work as I have yet to put together a decent formula for attacks.

Although finding convoys and setting up for an intercept by racing ahead has been pretty easy. I trailed a convoy all through the night marking its position and was able to easily position for in the morning. There was no course changes over 12 hour period after it made the initial inbound turn in the AM grid.

Yes, I once was screwing around with the game and didn't go deep and fast. Instead I was at around 30-40M and DCs were dropped close. There was an instant hit and death. (Although with so much blue water convoy activity, I cannot imagine myself going into the shallows unless to test myself.)

However, I've been going deep (150-160M) and I have been able to crawl silent at 1kts without DCs rocking the boat. It seems at 2kts they hear you, but a 1kts they don't seem to be able to pin point you.

Perhaps it's the blast radius of the DCs. In SH2 default, there was a huge blast radius. Perhaps, GWX increased escort sensors and toned down DC blast radius. That would be a standard technique in an attempt to create long protracted sub hunts; hunts that run for 4-8 hours as opposed to 1-2 hours. Just some speculation on my part.

---

Well, Pablo, what year does that happen?

Maybe I will just launch a career at that point as I would like to give that a try. Yes, I did read in the sticky something about the early war escort losing contact as they made their run.

Hi!

Sorry, I had a real-life interrupt.

The game engine does not automatically establish convoy or individual ship zig-zag plans along a base course; each zig-zag has to be manually entered when setting up the scenario or campaign, so running along parallel to a convoy to set up another attack is nowhere near as hard as it was in real life - just remember you are in a pack of one U-boat (in single player) so you need to avoid being spotted by escort radar.

The depth charge damage radius is indeed reduced to more historical values, but the game engine forces a constant damage radius while IRL the damage radius of a depth charge varied with depth (deeper explosion = smaller radius). Stock SH3 uses 300-lb depth charges, and GWX has not added the effects of historical 600-lb versions or the teardrop versions that showed up later in the war.

Try starting a career in mid-1943 and or in mid-late 1944 (be aware that the Allies will close the French U-boat bases after D-Day). The biggest step-function in difficulty is in 1943, as it was historically; in 1944 the step function is not quite as large, but the cumulative difficulty is very tough since some escorts can now track you within hedgehog range, and you will really begin to appreciate those funky homing and track-combing torpedoes when fired at a distance from the convoy to give you a chance to clear out of the area before the escort can respond.

Pablo

[MarkShot]

Variable blast ...

What was common wisdom on that debate?

Go deep, diminishes the blast and lowers the chance of a hit. However, if hit, it would be catastrophic.

Go shallow, increases the chance of hit. However, with less water pressure, leaking is not nearly as severe.

Myself I have always opted for the deep ... of the school of thought that the DC needs about 45-60 seconds to reach you. I saw an explanation somewhere that going to flank at that depth allows just enough time to get your boat clear of the DCs if well placed.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

There is no depth-based variable blast radius in SH3. There is either random damage output, or at least assigned damage reducing with distance from the center of detonation... However, the full range of damage output by a DC remains unaffected by depth in SH3.

When you are deep, bursts of flank speed coupled with directional changes do indeed help you evade DC's... if you are willing to risk potentially being heard by the hydrophones of other nearby ASW vessels.

There is also a tertiary reason for reducing the DC damage radius. In stock SH3, DD's occasionally blow up their own sterns. (typically when the player is shallow)

Though this bug is alleviated a great deal in GWX, it is not completely eliminated.

Prior to our adjustments, we also found that the detonation depth precision was too fine... causing laser guided DC attacks on both the horizontal and vertical planes. (Similar to the laser-guided deck gun fire and AA fire from both player and enemy units in stock SH3... as a result all guns in GWX have been purposefully "destabilized" to account for sea states, pitching and rolling, distance etc... and these effects are magnified more the worse conditions become.)

[jmr]

MarkShot, are you running Command AOD or the old DOS version? I have CAOD but I'm having trouble running it under WinXP. Have any tips to get it to work or do I need the DOS version along with DosBox to get good results?

[MarkShot]

Jmr,

I have both versions, but prefer the DOS. I think the graphics are bit better (if you can even talk about such a thing for a game from 1994) and you get engine pitch variations with the DOS version.

However, I can attest to the fact that AOD has lots of atomosphere and quality game play. If you get over the loss of graphics, then what else you are missing from SH3/GWX is personal use of the hydrophone, crew management, and manual TDC. On the other hand, you get a real Bdu which will form wolf packs.

The main problem people have running CAOD under XP or Vista is the sound card. Usually, you can get it to run without sound in compatibility mode. To run CAOD with sound, you should install/configure Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 (now a free download) with an older OS like Win 95 or Win98.

PM me if you want further information.