Historically inaccurate planes and medals

dean_acheson · 06-01-07, 10:45 AM

I don't know if anyone else here has read this.

I thought that the Lancaster was a bit off, and surely nobody that put this much work into something could, or would, do that.

I am not a modder in any shape or fashion, nor do I know how to model, but isn't it possible to take the B-24 and a Wildcat from SH3 and put them in SH4 for the Brewster Buffalo and Lancaster that are currently there? Maybe a Dauntless for the freaking Helldiver I see in Pearl in early 42?

That's it. It infuriates me that we can't have accurate planes here and in IL2.

Sorry, just a rant/thought. Hadn't seen any mention of this around here, and thought that I would cross post it.

CaptainCox · 06-01-07, 10:58 AM

I guess its possible as some guys already ported some ships over, (there is the TMAP issue of course) But you mentioned medals in the title?

AFAIK its a copyright issue that some models including the medals where never incorporated. Sounds silly I know but that's what I read some time ago.

dean_acheson · 06-01-07, 11:22 AM

That did kinda shock me. I can understand that airplanes possilbly, the names that is, if not the 'body styles' but how can medals be copyrighted? Hmmmm.....

I don't know what the TMAP issue is...

the_belgian · 06-01-07, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dean_acheson

That did kinda shock me. I can understand that airplanes possilbly, the names that is, if not the 'body styles' but how can medals be copyrighted? Hmmmm.....

I don't know what the TMAP issue is...

An example?

Trade Mark law protects the identity of goods and services, allowing distinctions to be made between different undertakings. Trade marks do not necessarily need to be registered with the Trade Mark Registry in order to be protected, although many MOD trade marks are. In the context of the MOD, "trade marks" include all badges, crests, heraldry, logos and other insignia used by the Armed Services and other MOD sections, together with their names, mottoes and the names of any services they provide.

These signs embody the reputation of the units they represent, and as such their use is very tightly controlled under trade mark law. Unauthorised reproduction is treated as a serious matter, as it can amount to the appropriation of an organisation's reputation.

(MOD=ministery of defence,England)

CaptainCox · 06-01-07, 11:34 AM

Sorry, its the way that textures effects and stuff is coded in the game. Until now there is no "GOOD" way of porting that stuff. Its basically light/occlusion maps...its sort of beyond me as well actually :p

There was a huge discussion about this copyright stuff in the UBI forum some time ago (sorry no link)

EDIT! Got it

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...5/m/5961015255

Quote:

Since Ubisoft is unable to gain the rights to use these materials the following medals in the game cannot be corrected in any future patches:

Wounded Medal used instead of the Purple Heart
Patrol Star used instead of the Bronze Star
Campaign Star used instead of the Silver Star
Submarine Service Medal used instead of the Navy Distinguished Service Medal
Victory Cross used instead of the Navy Cross
Medal of Valor used instead of the Medal of Honor

This is the same case as the following planes which cannot be corrected in future patches:

The generic US Fighter
The generic US Bomber
British Lancaster

We understand your frustration, and appreciate your understanding with the choices the dev team made to make the game as accurate as legally possible.

Have to add that it was l3th4l that told me this!

dean_acheson · 06-01-07, 02:01 PM

Sorry Capt. I should have mentioned that my first post had that link embedded in it.

I'm kinda a dolt.

The idea that the "Medal of Honor" is protected property strikes me as very odd.

CaptainCox · 06-01-07, 02:08 PM

Ahhhh,yea i see it know :p Anyhow, yep it is weird indeed!

AntEater · 06-01-07, 02:12 PM

Apparently the rumanians comitted the prime error: They asked for permission with the american heraldic society (or something like that) and since they were foreigners and the title of this institution reeks of dust, rheumatic blankets and prejudice, they were refused. A classic example that sometimes it is better not to ask and just do something that nobody bothers with than to ask and be refused permission just for the sake that the asked person/organisation has the power to refuse you.
I suppose, no game designer ever has asked for permission to use awards, but ever since the Oleg Maddox Grumman fiasco, Ubi got cautions.
Strange only that there's even a whole "medal of honor" series of games.

I can understand the problem with the planes, as they were build by private contractors for the US government, but medals are certainly commissioned by the US federal government (or the Congress, in chase of the CMOH) itself, so you shouldnt need a license for them or you would need a license to show the american flag.

FIREWALL · 06-01-07, 02:21 PM

A dumb question but, how were all the planes put legally in Silent Hunter 3

American and otherwise but can't be put in by UBI or by are modders in

Silent Hunter 4 ? I'd like to see the P-38 Lightning and the Corsair

among others. They were there you know. Like the ones in Pacific Fighters ? And also in SH-3.

Tigrone · 06-01-07, 03:03 PM

Ubisoft has never replied to any question of whom it was that may have denied them permission. No direct question, letter, or post on this has ever been acknowledged by them. There is just the assertion by a moderator that permission was denied by someone unknown.

US Dept. of Defense regulations specifically permit such artistic use of such emblems. There is no ban.

Ubisoft is selling games currently and has recently released others that contain accurate representations of US decorations. Il2-46, for example, comes with a complete set of US decorations and is currently on store shelves. There are even games in which US decorations are part of the name or cover art, not just appearing on a internal game screen.

FIREWALL · 06-01-07, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigrone

Ubisoft has never replied to any question of whom it was that may have denied them permission. No direct question, letter, or post on this has ever been acknowledged by them. There is just the assertion by a moderator that permission was denied by someone unknown.

US Dept. of Defense regulations specifically permit such artistic use of such emblems. There is no ban.

Ubisoft is selling games currently and has recently released others that contain accurate representations of US decorations. Il2-46, for example, comes with a complete set of US decorations and is currently on store shelves. There are even games in which US decorations are part of the name or cover art, not just appearing on a internal game screen.

Thx Tigrone Good info

Now if someone can do the same about Planes.

FIREWALL · 06-01-07, 05:58 PM

With the large response to rather haveing shiney medals instead of realistic and period planes in game.

I will PM that Dev that comes here once in a while to find out the facts on planes and if they can be modded into game .

Will let everyone know if I get a response good

or bad

about airplanes. :p

SnowCajun · 06-02-07, 07:49 AM

I'm greatly disappointed by the lack of accurate medals in SH4, and I think it's not correct that it's illegal to use examples of the real medals in the game, other games use them! Also I keep getting a repeat of the same "Cross" medal yet it shows just one in my case, no oak leaves or clusters for additional awards of the same medal. I think Ubi has failed miserably on this point. I love the game but the medals area is definately a disappointment for sure. Winning the medals is part of the fun to me.

SnowCajun

tater · 06-02-07, 08:13 AM

Um, the US planes from SH3 (some wholely built by modders I think)was converted to SH4 a while ago. Look at the sticky list of mods, I think it's in there. B-24, Hudson, F4F, P-38, PBY, and TBF.

Hmm, not in the stickie thread. Here it is:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=airplane

tater

06-01-07, 10:45 AM	#1
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Historically inaccurate planes and medals I don't know if anyone else here has read this. I thought that the Lancaster was a bit off, and surely nobody that put this much work into something could, or would, do that. I am not a modder in any shape or fashion, nor do I know how to model, but isn't it possible to take the B-24 and a Wildcat from SH3 and put them in SH4 for the Brewster Buffalo and Lancaster that are currently there? Maybe a Dauntless for the freaking Helldiver I see in Pearl in early 42? That's it. It infuriates me that we can't have accurate planes here and in IL2. Sorry, just a rant/thought. Hadn't seen any mention of this around here, and thought that I would cross post it.

06-01-07, 10:58 AM	#2
CaptainCox Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: A Swede in Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,897 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I guess its possible as some guys already ported some ships over, (there is the TMAP issue of course) But you mentioned medals in the title? AFAIK its a copyright issue that some models including the medals where never incorporated. Sounds silly I know but that's what I read some time ago. __________________ DOWNLOAD MY MODS HERE

06-01-07, 02:08 PM	#7
CaptainCox Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: A Swede in Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,897 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Ahhhh,yea i see it know :p Anyhow, yep it is weird indeed! __________________ DOWNLOAD MY MODS HERE

06-01-07, 02:12 PM	#8
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Apparently the rumanians comitted the prime error: They asked for permission with the american heraldic society (or something like that) and since they were foreigners and the title of this institution reeks of dust, rheumatic blankets and prejudice, they were refused. A classic example that sometimes it is better not to ask and just do something that nobody bothers with than to ask and be refused permission just for the sake that the asked person/organisation has the power to refuse you. I suppose, no game designer ever has asked for permission to use awards, but ever since the Oleg Maddox Grumman fiasco, Ubi got cautions. Strange only that there's even a whole "medal of honor" series of games. I can understand the problem with the planes, as they were build by private contractors for the US government, but medals are certainly commissioned by the US federal government (or the Congress, in chase of the CMOH) itself, so you shouldnt need a license for them or you would need a license to show the american flag. __________________

06-01-07, 02:21 PM	#9
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	A dumb question but, how were all the planes put legally in Silent Hunter 3 American and otherwise but can't be put in by UBI or by are modders in Silent Hunter 4 ? I'd like to see the P-38 Lightning and the Corsair among others. They were there you know. Like the ones in Pacific Fighters ? And also in SH-3. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

06-01-07, 11:22 AM	#3
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	That did kinda shock me. I can understand that airplanes possilbly, the names that is, if not the 'body styles' but how can medals be copyrighted? Hmmmm..... I don't know what the TMAP issue is...

06-01-07, 02:01 PM	#6
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Sorry Capt. I should have mentioned that my first post had that link embedded in it. I'm kinda a dolt. The idea that the "Medal of Honor" is protected property strikes me as very odd.

06-01-07, 03:03 PM	#10
Tigrone Commander Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Newport Beach, CA Posts: 470 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	The is no ban on using images of US decorations. Ubisoft has never replied to any question of whom it was that may have denied them permission. No direct question, letter, or post on this has ever been acknowledged by them. There is just the assertion by a moderator that permission was denied by someone unknown. US Dept. of Defense regulations specifically permit such artistic use of such emblems. There is no ban. Ubisoft is selling games currently and has recently released others that contain accurate representations of US decorations. Il2-46, for example, comes with a complete set of US decorations and is currently on store shelves. There are even games in which US decorations are part of the name or cover art, not just appearing on a internal game screen. __________________ Commander Hiram Cassedy: "Tigrone has saved the Air Force and is now returning to Iwo Jima with 28 rescued zoomies." B-29 SNUFFY & THE SHIF'LESS SKONKS among them. I've a broom at the mast said he, for the broom is a sign for me, that wherever I go, I sweep the mighty sea.

06-01-07, 05:58 PM	#12
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	With the large response to rather haveing shiney medals instead of realistic and period planes in game. I will PM that Dev that comes here once in a while to find out the facts on planes and if they can be modded into game . Will let everyone know if I get a response good or bad about airplanes. :p __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

06-02-07, 07:49 AM	#13
SnowCajun Bosun Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 61 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Accurate Medals I'm greatly disappointed by the lack of accurate medals in SH4, and I think it's not correct that it's illegal to use examples of the real medals in the game, other games use them! Also I keep getting a repeat of the same "Cross" medal yet it shows just one in my case, no oak leaves or clusters for additional awards of the same medal. I think Ubi has failed miserably on this point. I love the game but the medals area is definately a disappointment for sure. Winning the medals is part of the fun to me. SnowCajun Last edited by SnowCajun; 06-02-07 at 05:39 PM.

06-02-07, 08:13 AM	#14
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Um, the US planes from SH3 (some wholely built by modders I think)was converted to SH4 a while ago. Look at the sticky list of mods, I think it's in there. B-24, Hudson, F4F, P-38, PBY, and TBF. Hmm, not in the stickie thread. Here it is: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=airplane tater