New Zealand no longer a christian country

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hitman

That would requiere people to sit down and think as well as asuming the responsability of their actions,

The basic idea of "Karma".

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Prof

Why do you assume that Christians don't think for themselves? The atheist rhetoric on this forum in the past few days is getting a little irritating.

What atheistic rethoric? Maybe you are basing too much on this prejudice:

Every border collie is a dog. But not every dog is a border collie. - Every theism is religion. But not every religion must be theistic.

Now, this time I spare me the details. Just this time.

[Reece]

You opened up a can of worms Kiwi! I'll throw in my spanner & state that I'm a Christian & proud of it, atleast I was brought up on good morals & ethics!
There that should stir things up a bit!

[kurtz]

Originally Posted by Reece

You opened up a can of worms Kiwi! I'll throw in my spanner & state that I'm a Christian & proud of it, atleast I was brought up on good morals & ethics!
There that should stir things up a bit!

I don't see the connection between you being a christian and being brought up with good morals and ethics. Plenty of people have morals and ethics and aren't christian, also conversley there are as likely to be as many christians with slipshod morals and poor ethics.

[Prof]

OK, sorry for using the word 'atheist' I was posting a spare few minutes I had at work (waiting for Excel to do a matrix inversion...) and it was the best I could come up with at the time.

A lot of you have made the same point that Christians (I won't speak for religions other than my own) don't think for themselves because they accept either what was taught to them or what's written in the Bible.

The problem with 'thinking for yourself' in that context is that you end up with a man-made philosophy which has nothing to do with the original religion. The Christianity I see put before me in the Bible claims to be the truth. That being so, I cannot take it upon myself to 'think for myself' and decide which bits I want to keep and which bits I don't want to keep. If I did that, I would end up with my own personal belief system which wouldn't be true.

This doesn't mean that I don't question the authority of the Bible or the existence of God. I've considered those things and I have decided that God exists and the Bible is his word. I've not gone into this blindly and without thinking about it.

I would therefore claim that I do think for myself, but not about which bits to believe and which bits not to believe. It's all or nothing. Note that this does not mean that I believe anything a preacher tells me. I consider it very important to check what is said on Sunday against the Bible.

Oh, and before anyone asks about why I feel free to 'ignore' bits of the Old Testament about eating pork or wearing clothing of mixed fibres, I suggest you read the book of Acts!

I don't expect to 'win' this argument. I'm not very good when it comes to philosophical arguments but I do feel I should attempt to explain that Christians aren't all brainwashed zombies who are open for ridicule.

[Yahoshua]

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Prof

The Christianity I see put before me in the Bible claims to be the truth. That being so, I cannot take it upon myself to 'think for myself'

[This is also a sample from this post.]

"The bible is true because it says it is true. If the bible always tells the truth, then when it says it is true it must be so"

This is nice example of a logic loop and there for an example of faulty reasoning. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to see the problems with that quote.

Originally Posted by Prof

I would therefore claim that I do think for myself, but not about which bits to believe and which bits not to believe. It's all or nothing.

[This is a sample from this post.]

Quoting from you, you decided that "God exists and the Bible is his word". After you decided that you agreed with the basics you stopped thinking about "which bits to believe and which bits not to believe".

Referring back to my previous post.... You have done the same as the hypothetical Joe did. (only with Christianity instead of Judaism).

Through your own free thought you have decided not to have any free thought about individual bits of the bible.

Do you think it is rational to live your life according to individual details and dogmas in a book without subjecting such dogmas to your own free and critical thought? Even if you believe that book to be written by a god.

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Bahahaha! We should do a stage version of the GenralTopics forum!
*edit* Correction: Under no circumstances should we ever attempt to do a stage version of the GenralTopics forum!

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Reece

You opened up a can of worms Kiwi! I'll throw in my spanner & state that I'm a Christian & proud of it, atleast I was brought up on good morals & ethics!
There that should stir things up a bit!

He he, I am the first to bite.

I was brought up on good morals & ethics, as I brought up my kids.
We are atheists.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Prof

OK, sorry for using the word 'atheist' I was posting a spare few minutes I had at work (waiting for Excel to do a matrix inversion...) and it was the best I could come up with at the time.

A lot of you have made the same point that Christians (I won't speak for religions other than my own) don't think for themselves because they accept either what was taught to them or what's written in the Bible.

The problem with 'thinking for yourself' in that context is that you end up with a man-made philosophy which has nothing to do with the original religion. The Christianity I see put before me in the Bible claims to be the truth. That being so, I cannot take it upon myself to 'think for myself' and decide which bits I want to keep and which bits I don't want to keep. If I did that, I would end up with my own personal belief system which wouldn't be true.

This doesn't mean that I don't question the authority of the Bible or the existence of God. I've considered those things and I have decided that God exists and the Bible is his word. I've not gone into this blindly and without thinking about it.

I would therefore claim that I do think for myself, but not about which bits to believe and which bits not to believe. It's all or nothing. Note that this does not mean that I believe anything a preacher tells me. I consider it very important to check what is said on Sunday against the Bible.

Oh, and before anyone asks about why I feel free to 'ignore' bits of the Old Testament about eating pork or wearing clothing of mixed fibres, I suggest you read the book of Acts!

I don't expect to 'win' this argument. I'm not very good when it comes to philosophical arguments but I do feel I should attempt to explain that Christians aren't all brainwashed zombies who are open for ridicule.

Well, I guess 90 % (or perhaps more) will stick to the religion there parents had, isn't that proof they (most) don't think about there religion? :hmm:

[Prof]

Originally Posted by Letum

"The bible is true because it says it is true. If the bible always tells the truth, then when it says it is true it must be so"

This is nice example of a logic loop and there for an example of faulty reasoning. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to see the problems with that quote.

I realise that there is a problem getting into that loop from the outside, but if God were provable by logic then there would be no atheists. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God by logic alone, so I don't see the 'logic loop', as you put it, as a problem. The way into the loop (as I see it) is to read the Bible and think about what it means. If you find enough evidence that it's true then you're into the loop.

Do you think it is rational to live your life according to individual details and dogmas in a book without subjecting such dogmas to your own free and critical thought? Even if you believe that book to be written by a god.

Yes, I do. If God, being infinitely greater than I, wrote the book then who am I to argue? If I find a problem with something in the Bible it is my opinion that must change. I have no right to tell God that he's wrong and carry on as I did before.

Originally Posted by Fish

Well, I guess 90 % (or perhaps more) will stick to the religion there parents had, isn't that proof they (most) don't think about there religion? :hmm:

I agree that the majority of people who profess a particular religion do so without really thinking about it. The comments to which I am objecting are those which label all Christians as unintelligent and unthinking.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Nice - what BS. Recognizes the people she is scared of, but won't give dignitary's in visit respect. You elected this person?

-S

Would i vote for a woman to be my leader???? Get real they belong where they should be "In Da Kitchen"

National supporter since i was old enough to vote

Two main parties
National - Leader John Keys
Labour - Leader Helen 'childless' Clark

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Prof

Yes, I do. If God, being infinitely greater than I, wrote the book then who am I to argue? If I find a problem with something in the Bible it is my opinion that must change. I have no right to tell God that he's wrong and carry on as I did before.

I could from theologians and philosophers from the 17th century onwards that pick holes in your reasoning, but that's all rather dull and I don't have the energy right now.

So for now...
Ive always been amused in particular by one christian philosopher and high-ranking preacher that said words to the effect of:
"We should try our best to show that religion is totally unreasonable and illogical. That way when we still believe in it; (despite proving it is total nonsense) we show how strong and unbreakable our faith is."

Still totally nuts, but it makes more sense than trying to rationalise the irrational!

[Happy Times]

Yes, I do. If God, being infinitely greater than I, wrote the book then who am I to argue? If I find a problem with something in the Bible it is my opinion that must change. I have no right to tell God that he's wrong and carry on as I did before.

Men wrote the bible and later canonized it. That is fact and you cant possibly argue against that.

[RedMenace]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

Would i vote for a woman to be my leader???? Get real they belong where they should be "In Da Kitchen"

Okay, that seemed like you were serious, if so. You need to grow up. Fast.

Also, religion is a waste. There are so many religions, its stupid to think YOURS is the right one. It's better to develop your own philosophy instead of taking the easy way out and stealing someone else's. Especially when the other's are so constrictive, dogmatic, deadly, and arrogant.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Prof

Yes, I do. If God, being infinitely greater than I, wrote the book then who am I to argue? If I find a problem with something in the Bible it is my opinion that must change. I have no right to tell God that he's wrong and carry on as I did before.

But the Bible isn't the word of God. If we do assume then that it is God's word as written some thousands of years ago then we can call the Bible "God's word filtered through the translations and re-writings of many hands over centuries". You can say what you will about the need for faith in God, but the bible is altogether different. It is a book which has been routinely used and manipulated by all sorts of power mongers for centuries. How can you have faith in a book which was not personally delivered to you by god, but delivered by a string of mortal, and unlike God, imperfect people who may or may not have erred in their translations, transcriptions, or been malicious in their alterations of it?

I can accept the belief in God without any worldly proof. But the Bible is not a virginal document. It is old and there are many versions of it to choose from. I can't see any absolutism in there since there is more than one source.