Channel 4 - Battle for the Holy Land

[moose1am]

Originally Posted by cobalt

I'd be pissed if I was a Palestinian. In the west we're fed one side of the story.

Be ready for a bunch of right wing spoon fed comments to fly your way.


they hate us for our freedom!

No

They hate us because we tread on them

And steal their land.

Well said. I hate it when the Right Wingers say that they are stealing our freedom or hate the US because of our freedom. That's total BS. They hate us because we are taking away their freedoms in their lands. I am talking about Iraq. We invaded this country to steal their oil. The invastion of Iraq and the occupation of this middle east country has stirred up the biggest hornets next in the history of mankind. Just wait until Iran gets the bomb. It won't be much longer and they have increased their numbers of centrifuges that are being used to enrich uranium so that they can build atomic bombs by the dozens.

As gas price continue to rise the American Public will get madder and madder until all hell breaks loose here.

China will want its share of the oil in the middle east and so will India. Pakistan already has atomic weapons and that is why we (USA) won't go into Pakistan to pull Bin Ladin out of there. Remember when Bush said that any country that harbors Al Queda would be our enemy. He said you are either with us or against us. Well if Pakistan is harboring Bin Ladin and the other Al Queda and Taliban troublemakers then Pakistan is not with us. That's pretty obvious to see.

But hell the Oil Companies are getting what they want out of Bush's Presidency. Higher Oil and Gas Prices and Record Profits for the stock owners and CEO' of EXXON and SHELL and BP.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by moose1am

Well said. I hate it when the Right Wingers say that they are stealing our freedom or hate the US because of our freedom. That's total BS. They hate us because we are taking away their freedoms in their lands. I am talking about Iraq. We invaded this country to steal their oil. The invastion of Iraq and the occupation of this middle east country has stirred up the biggest hornets next in the history of mankind. Just wait until Iran gets the bomb. It won't be much longer and they have increased their numbers of centrifuges that are being used to enrich uranium so that they can build atomic bombs by the dozens.

As gas price continue to rise the American Public will get madder and madder until all hell breaks loose here.

China will want its share of the oil in the middle east and so will India. Pakistan already has atomic weapons and that is why we (USA) won't go into Pakistan to pull Bin Ladin out of there. Remember when Bush said that any country that harbors Al Queda would be our enemy. He said you are either with us or against us. Well if Pakistan is harboring Bin Ladin and the other Al Queda and Taliban troublemakers then Pakistan is not with us. That's pretty obvious to see.

But hell the Oil Companies are getting what they want out of Bush's Presidency. Higher Oil and Gas Prices and Record Profits for the stock owners and CEO' of EXXON and SHELL and BP.

You way over simplify a very complex situation.

There is no "One" man or thing to hang the blame on...it is the cumulation of thousands of years killing by all sides each laying claim to lands that no-one can own truly...can an immortal being that lives barley a hundred years posses the Earth which has stood for thousands...or millions if your an evolutionist?

No

Herein lies our own judgement...that we love Death more than Life.We will all reap what we have sown....get over it.

Carry a gun, die by a gun...have nuclear bombs, it is only a matter of time when some will go off.Live by the sword, die by it.

Prepare yourselves is the only wise thing you can do...prepare your soul to meet it's maker.

[cobalt]

hey, thats the four horsemen!

they look mean

[DanCanovas]

Originally Posted by Iceman

You way over simplify a very complex situation.

There is no "One" man or thing to hang the blame on...it is the cumulation of thousands of years killing by all sides each laying claim to lands that no-one can own truly...can an immortal being that lives barley a hundred years posses the Earth which has stood for thousands...or millions if your an evolutionist?

No

Herein lies our own judgement...that we love Death more than Life.We will all reap what we have sown....get over it.

Carry a gun, die by a gun...have nuclear bombs, it is only a matter of time when some will go off.Live by the sword, die by it.

Prepare yourselves is the only wise thing you can do...prepare your soul to meet it's maker.

christ its all doom and gloom!

[HunterICX]

Really, what we have now is Old news.

There's always been a Conflict between the Religious groups, and that will never end.

because really who's right in this Conflict?

we all do terrible things to eachother in the name of God.
silly thought in the end...we do it for the same figure.

most of the wars have been fought because of religious causes.
and if you look close enough, you cant understand why we do it.

my thoughts
HunterICX

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by DanCanovas

christ its all doom and gloom!

Yeah and i ask myself, Why? God the mightly God the creator, i got a 1001 questions to ask him when i stand before him. And i will ask them! He better be ready for me when i do!!!

[robbo180265]

[DanCanovas]

I find that quite amusing but I think you will offend some people greatly by posting that. Having said that it will be accepted...if it was the Koran, there would be an uproar

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by DanCanovas

I find that quite amusing but I think you will offend some people greatly by posting that. Having said that it will be accepted...if it was the Koran, there would be an uproar

If anybody is offended I'll pull it. I just thought it was quite funny and very apt. It's just a book, it's how we interpret it that causes all the trouble

[DanCanovas]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

If anybody is offended I'll pull it. I just thought it was quite funny and very apt. It's just a book, it's how we interpret it that causes all the trouble

I completely agree. but alot of people don't see things like that.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by DanCanovas

I completely agree. but alot of people don't see things like that.

Which is why there are so many wars in the name of religion.

[Skybird]

Two things almost all people have in common: they try to avoid pain, and they are looking for happiness. Several philosophies mention this, sometimes more, sometimes less clearly, but Siddharta imo was the one stressing this simple truth and reflecting it in his thoughts more than anyone else.

Beyond that, all people are craving for sense and meaning int heir lives, want answers to the simple, "great" questions: Where from, where to, how long, why?

Even a religion-denying arch-materialist cannot escape to try to become happy, and give his living a meaning. His way is consummation maybe, but still it is his attempt to deal with these questions that he tries to evade. Like communication theory stresses that it is impossible not to communicate, I would stress that it is impossible for human beings not to be spiritual beings. But sometimes we go wrong in our search for answers and ways to avoid pain, become happy, and add meaning to life. this does not change the basic fact that we nevertheless try.

Concerning "religions", these usually are systems that are associated with then teachings of historical figures that are considered these religions' founders. I think it is always wise to analyse if the historical record of deeds and actings of a religion - is in congruence or violation of that person's teachings. Where necessary, since both things may prove to be very different, one should never forget that difference and make clear to what one is referring when talking of "religion". So, if you think you see a religion doing harm in history, you should always check if this harm is in congruence or violation of the founder's teachings. Here is were the true qualitative differences between religions, at least on a theoretical level, appear. Not all religions are of equal value. something is not worthy jut because it is labelled as religion or culture by some. Too often theoretical systems today are tried to be made unreachable for critical analysis and criticism by just saying "This is my culture, this is my religion". True religion demands empirical experience of wether or not it's claims are true, else it turns into superstition, and personal cult, corruptous institutions, and mindsets of extremely limited perspective.

There are plenty of these cults and their followers usually don't like to be told these things. They do not seek truth, they seek for being confirmed in their cosy nest that they built of their personal imaginations of what their idol is. checking the truth in that is not what they are interested in. They even consider it to be a virtue not to do so. But nevertheless: it is no virtue, but weakness.

And overcompensating this weakness often is the true, deeper cause of the violence being done in the name of "religion". In other words: it is blindness and helplessness that causes "religious" people committing the most outraging acts of brutality and violence in the name of their beliefs. Stopping them we must, of course. That does not exclude that we can understand why they are like they are. but for that we mist stop to assume that every system of believing is as true and worthy and valuable as any other such system. We must stop to indiscriminately assume that something is to be tolerated simply because this "something" calls itself already a religion, a culture, or whatever. we must learn the limits of tolerance. And in doing this, the various religions of the world by far are not on the same level.You can read that from the level of religiously motivated violence and intolerance int heir societies, the way the behave to wards other religions, and the level of aggressiveness by which they move and act around the globe.

Really, not everything is of the same value just because it exists. That's why evolution has stopped many, many design experiments during the history of life. Some ways, some philosophies, some religions are simply nothing else than dead ends, leading nowhere.

The Holy Land is the most clever mouse trap Mr. "Satan" ever has set up. Instead of crushing that diabolic trap, people continue to fall victim to it, thinking that they are pleasing their idols that way. The holy land makes them doing all kinds of cruel things to others, and they consider that to be their religious duty, or heritage, the very pious ones even think it is their right to do so. Who ever feels concerned, may check for the logic and justice in acting like this. Logic and spirituality are no antagonists - they are mutual supportive necessities.

Having been a battleground for rivalling tribes since centuries if not millenia before the Romans, before Jesus, before Muhammad, then having been a rebellious Jewish province of the Roman empire, and after emperor Augustus' reign officially being "Christian", it then was taken by Islam with force, and then was tried to get recaptured by the initial crusades, and then again fell to Islam completely for centuries, then was taken by the Jewish state, the Holy Land now is even a possible cause for a third World War, if there ever will be one.

It can't be more away from life, and holiness, can it?


HOLY land? what kind of holiness is this? Rocks, and sands, drowned with blood and silly claims and superstitious beliefs since centuries? It's a land of death and destruction, nothing else, the place of human soul's ongoing torment. Say yourself, what does a mother do if her two children start fighting and shouting for one toy both want to have? If a reasonable settlement is not possible, a deal of any kind, she takes away the toy from both, and none of them will have it. That's what should be done with these damn holy places, too. There is no sign of holiness, but a history of doom. Evolution will have it's way towards ongoing development anyway - either by getting our sick minds beyond our mental blocks, or by leaving our sick minds behind her and all life, closing the chapter of this experiment called homo sapiens once and forever.

Education is important, and access to historical raw data. A policy, a religion trying to limit these, or to prevent these, or to censor these, must be forced back at all cost (at ALL cost), else it results in a society of murderous idiots.

Originally Posted by Siddharta

Do not put faith in traditions, even though they have been accepted for long generations and in many countries. Do not believe a thing be-cause many repeat it. Do not accept a thing on the authority of one or another of the sages of old, nor on the ground of statements as found in the books. Never believe anything because probability is in its favour. Do not believe in that which you yourselves have imagined, thinking that a god has inspired it. Believe nothing merely on the authority of the teachers or the priests. After examination, believe that which you have tested for yourself and found reasonable, which is in conformity with your well being and that of others.

[kurtz]

Originally Posted by cobalt

hey, thats the four horsemen!

they look mean

WHERE'S THEIR TROUSERS???

[kurtz]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

If anybody is offended I'll pull it. I just thought it was quite funny and very apt. It's just a book, it's how we interpret it that causes all the trouble

I liked it! and so did my daughter (she asked me to say that!), the trouble with people who believe in gods is they still think they can bully people into questioning their daft ideas. Every time a picture like that is shown it's a blow for civilisation and reason.

Robbo IIRC I don't agree with most of your posts but I'd buy you a beer for that one.

Mike

[Frau_Phillips]

I refuse to side with either agenda. The truth is, the people of both Israel and Palestine are human beings, and if one side wins, the other side has to lose.
I advocate compromise instead, because I absolutely don't want to see anyone over there suffer.

While part of me is happy to see the Israelis finally find their Holy Land, my heart hurts for all the people who lived there originally and were displaced.

The whole situation bloody sucks if you ask me!