Immigration Reform deal done?

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Someone should start thinking seriously about putting an end to this ASAP, not just in the US but mainly in the EU. We can't continue absorbing the results of irresponsable demographics in the third world and/or poorer countries:hmm:

You guys should have thought of that before you went and colonized them. Great job you did around the world. You really should be proud of yourselves.

As yee sow, so shall yee reap.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Heibges

You guys should have thought of that before you went and colonized them. Great job you did around the world. You really should be proud of yourselves.

As yee sow, so shall yee reap.

How far back in history can we go to use this logic? :hmm:

[Heibges]

Start back 50 years ago since the end of WWII, for most of the world. Which is barely history if you follow the 30 Years Rule.

But look at Russia, and some of those bad feelings go back 600 years. It's always been tough being Russia's neighboor.

I had a professor in college who predicted that a war between Russia and Ukraine was likely. But it's been almost 20 years so hopefully this will not come to pass.

Japan, you could argue, is the only country that benefited by contact with the West.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Heibges

Start back 50 years ago since the end of WWII, for most of the world. Which is barely history if you follow the 30 Years Rule.

And what does this have to do with Spain?

[jumpy]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

And what does this have to do with Spain?

in the context of this topic one might well ask 'And what does this have to do with Israel?' it surely makes as much or as little sense...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by jumpy

in the context of this topic one might well ask 'And what does this have to do with Israel?' it surely makes as much or as little sense...

Yep. I lost track.

EDIT: But Hitman replied to Heibges spot on.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

And what does this have to do with Spain?

I thought we were talking about immigration in the United States.

If the countries of Central and South America had prospered under America's tutelage since the Monroe Doctrine, would America have the problem with illegal immigrants it has today.

If the gentlemen of Europe, in assuming their White Man's Burden, had actually meant to help the countries they colonized, would they have the problems with immigrants looking for a bigger piece of the pie?

[Hitman]

Past is past, Heibges, no sense crying over it now. I'm talking about present and future; this flow of inmigration must stop. That does not mean we shall ignore the poverty and the problems in those countries that force people to emigrate. But IMO ultimately the quick and dirty solution of opening the doors to uncontrolled inmigration to hape cheap workers will in the medium term have catastrophic consequences. France is a good example...and it had a much stronger personality and national feel than us, and look what happened after absorbing more inmigrants than it could succesfully integrate in his structures:hmm:

I've been assured that my congressman, from Colorado's 6th congressional district, will vote against this bill. His name is Tom Tancredo.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Past is past, Heibges, no sense crying over it now. I'm talking about present and future; this flow of inmigration must stop. That does not mean we shall ignore the poverty and the problems in those countries that force people to emigrate. But IMO ultimately the quick and dirty solution of opening the doors to uncontrolled inmigration to hape cheap workers will in the medium term have catastrophic consequences. France is a good example...and it had a much stronger personality and national feel than us, and look what happened after absorbing more inmigrants than it could succesfully integrate in his structures:hmm:

I see your point, but I feel everyone, even a nation-state, must take responsibility for its actions, and make corrections.

In some respects, I think that Spain was lucky to lose the Spanish American War, because all those countries that may have been angry with Spain, ended up angry at the United States instead. All my friends from Central and South America, have nothing but good things to say about Spain, and are very proud of their Spanish Heritage. But they all seem to be angry at the United States for sticking its fingers in their business.

In the United States, I think the issue of Illegal Immigrants is seperate from that of Cheap Labor. United States agriculture has relied on a supply of cheap labor since the Dust Bowl in the 1930's. And I think this stems from more basic problems with the Western Agricultural Economy since the Industrial Revolution. Hasn't England been subsidizing her farmers in one form or another for almost 300 years?

Someone brought up just raising the minimum wage in the United States, but this has small and medium sized business owners going crazy if you do that.

[Hitman]

There was a big article in Businessweek 2 weeks ago, singing the praise of the success of massive immigration in your country, Spain. The article claimed that Spain could serve as the positive role model for the rest of Europe, now much more experienced in the negative aspects of immigration. The article devoted one small paragraph to what-if-it-doesn't-work and then moved on to nothing but blind positive thinking.

It's not my country. I could afford to laugh at the author but I just shook my head.

Hey, inmigration has been a success here. We have MILLIONS of inmigrants, can you think of a higher success? [Irony mode OFF]

Spain as we know it today is the result of inmigration and a flow of lots of cultures. All of them contributed to form us as we are today, Romans, cartaginens, phoenicians, visigotes, islam...yet it should be obvious that NONE of those cultures exists any longer but instead there is a fusion of all of them. Many cheap columnists seem to forget that. If we continue to have such a flow of inmigration, we might have a succesful society, a strong economy here and a strong culture here (Which I doubt) but it will NO LONGER be the spanish one, that's for sure:hmm:

You guys should have thought of that before you went and colonized them. Great job you did around the world. You really should be proud of yourselves.

As yee sow, so shall yee reap.

Great contribution to the discussion Heibges, backed with lots of historical data and a deep reasoning. You must be proud of it.