[req] Looking for authoritive info on surface endurance

[Ducimus]

Anyone know a site that has some authoritve information on exactly how far fleet submarines could travel? Or even a book and dont mind posting the specs listed?

Ive scoured the net repeatidly and sources all seem to vary, but generally agree upon the neighborhood of 12,000 NM @ 10 kts for most sub types, which i find hard to beleive when i find other sources that say for example one of the subtle differences between the tambor and gar was a bit more fuel. Some sources site one sub type of 96,000 gallons, another cites 100+ gallons, and the general slap of 12,000KM @ 10 kts is given, again, im skeptical.

By default the game has a 15,000 NM @ 10 kt endurance. Fuel management hardly comes into play. Unless thats a reflection of some wartme modification, id really love to bring it back down to historical specfications (whatever they are), and would love some more authorive info on it.

[Ducimus]

And yes, this is me counting rivets.

[tedhealy]

I assume you've looked at valortatsea.com?

http://www.valoratsea.com/gato.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/Tambor.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/Salmon1.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/pclass.htm
http://www.valoratsea.com/Sclass1.htm

I couldn't tell you how accurate the info is, but it's another bit of info.

[Ducimus]

Ya ive looked at that site, all the other major ones that everyone knows about.

Not specific enough for me. I mean, if i have to ill settle at, or around 12,000 @ 10 kts, i guess i will, but i think thats a round approximation. Theres just too many inconsitances on specifics.

edit: for example, valoratsea.com will say 12,000 on a tambor, and fleetsubmarine.com will say 11. go to some of the wiki articles and it will say 11,800 on a gato, and elsewhere it will say 12. etc etc, back and forth link ping pong.

[tedhealy]

Another place to look might be navsource

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/04idx.htm

It looks like it will either list the fuel capacity or range for most.

edit: Considering so many boats were modified individually, I would imagine one exact number probably wouldn't apply to all boats. Some will be higher or lower within the same class.

edit2: just looking at early Balaos vs late ones, the earlies have around 95,000 fuel capacity and the laters have around 115,000 or so, so one number won't sum up all the boats in a class.

[Jmack]

here what i found ... not shure how reliable they are because they all say
maximum range 11,000 miles at 10 knots


Balao Class

Fuel Capacity: 116,000 gallons.

Tench Class

Fuel Capacity: 118,510 gallons.

Gato Class

Fuel Capacity: 94.400 gallons.

Sargo Class

Fuel Capacity: 109,900 gallons.

Tambor Class

Fuel Capacity: 93,993 / 96,365 gallons.

Salmon Class

Fuel Capacity: 96,025 gallons.

Shark Class

Fuel Capacity: 85,946 / 86,675 gallons.

[Ducimus]

@tedhealy good point on individual modificaitons. I think one might have to settle for an average or best case scenario.

@Jmack
Good work. Thats a little bit more along the lines of what im looking for, although i woudlnt doubt they're be some variences. Now the trouble is how to convert that to a number usable by the game. (IE MaxRange @ speed format)

:hmm:


edit: Wow, did the sargo really have more fuel then a gato? (generally speaking)

[tedhealy]

Originally Posted by Jmack

here what i found ... not shure how reliable they are because they all say
maximum range 11,000 miles at 10 knots


Balao Class

Fuel Capacity: 116,000 gallons.

Tench Class

Fuel Capacity: 118,510 gallons.

Gato Class

Fuel Capacity: 94.400 gallons.

Sargo Class

Fuel Capacity: 109,900 gallons.

Tambor Class

Fuel Capacity: 93,993 / 96,365 gallons.

Salmon Class

Fuel Capacity: 96,025 gallons.

Shark Class

Fuel Capacity: 85,946 / 86,675 gallons.

I think those are good numbers on average and using an average is the best we'll be able to do in sh4.

If you look at individual subs within a class (assuming navsource is accurate), some subs had very different fuel capacities. Some gatos had 115,000, some balaos had 94,000. We don't know what kind of upgrades a sub may have gotten throughout the war to improve fuel capacity, if the later built boats within a class had some of those upgrades built in straight from the yard, or why sometimes a later boat in a class has a smaller fuel capacity.

[Jmack]

considering that the average goes around 12,000 or 11,000 nm at 10 knots and you have for example for the tench 118,510 gallons this means that i... err well im not vey good at math

[Canonicus]

One book that I consider to be authoritative on this subject is "U.S. Submarines Through 1945" by Norman Freidman Phd. published by Naval Institute Press, 1995

In this very exhaustive study, Dr. Freidman lists in appendix D " Submarine Data".

the folowing figures....

Surface Endurance (nm/kt)

S-18...3420/6.5
Max fuel in MBT (Main Ballast Tank) ...8950/9.5

S-42... 2510/6.5
Max fuel in MBT..... 10,000/8.1

Porpoise... 6000/10
Max fuel in MBT... 22,000/8

Salmon... 11,000/10

Sargo... 11,000/10

Tambor/Gar... 11,000/10

Gato... 11,000/10

Balao... 11,000/10

I've seen some data that suggests that the later Balao/Tench boats had 12,000/10
surface endurance ... but NEVER 15,000 nm .

Hope this helps.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by tedhealy

If you look at individual subs within a class (assuming navsource is accurate), some subs had very different fuel capacities. Some gatos had 115,000, some balaos had 94,000. We don't know what kind of upgrades a sub may have gotten throughout the war to improve fuel capacity, if the later built boats within a class had some of those upgrades built in straight from the yard, or why sometimes a later boat in a class has a smaller fuel capacity.

Ya i was just looking at that, its all over the place. At this point im just wondering how they scale against each other sans modification. For example would an unmodified Sargo have more range then an unmodified Gato or not?

Im starting to think thats a tootsie pop question.

[Jmack]

in all the sites i found including wiki ... the range never goes beyond 12,000 at 10 knots

for example the Valor at Sea site :

for the gato class has the following

11,800 nm at 10 knots
97,140 gallons

[Ducimus]

@Canonicus

Thanks for the stats you listed, it helps.



One bright spot in all of the deviations..... I suppose one could take a *little* artistic license to further differntiate the boat types if you had to. But most certainly 15,000@ 10 KM is a bunch of crock.

[Jmack]

i found this
The Fleet Type Submarine


can be found here http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/index.htm


The Fleet Type Submarine, Navpers 16160, is the first in a series of submarine training manuals that was completed just after WW II. The series describes the peak of WW II US submarine technology.

it has pretty interesting stuff ...

5B3. Fuel oil tanks. a. Normal fuel tanks. The normal fuel tanks are used only for the storage of fuel oil. They are usually located toward the extremities of the boat rather than close to amidships. They vary in size, but normally have capacities of from 10,000 to 20,000 gallons each. Most modern submarines have four of these tanks. In a typical installation (Figure 5-1) they are numbered No. 1, No. 2, No. 6, and No. 7.
b. Fuel ballast tanks. Fuel ballast tanks are large tanks, amidships, between the pressure hull and the outer hull, which may be used either as fuel storage tanks or as main ballast tanks. They are connected to the fuel oil system in the same manner as the normal fuel oil tanks, but in addition, they have main vents, main flood valves, and high-pressure air and low-pressure blower connections which are necessary when the tank is in use as a main ballast tank. When rigged as a main ballast tank, all connections to the fuel oil system are secured.
Most fleet type submarines have three fuel ballast tanks varying in capacity from about 19,000 to 25,000 gallons. On a typical installation (Figure 5-1), the fuel ballast tanks are numbered No. 3, No. 4, and No. 5. Current practice is to depart on war patrol with all fuel ballast tanks filled with fuel oil. Fuel is used first from No. 4 fuel ballast tank, and as soon as that tank is empty of fuel (filled with salt water) it is converted to a main ballast tank. Upon conversion, the tank is flushed out several times to insure that all fuel oil is out of the tank. The conversion of No. 4 FBT to a main ballast tank increases the stability of the submarine and decreases the amount of wetter surface of the hull when on the surface.

[ReallyDedPoet]

This from Sailor Steve awhile back Ducimus, great site:

http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/


U.S.S. Wahoo pictured in July 1943 off Mare Island Navy Yard. Commanded by Dudley "Mush" Morton,
Wahoo was one of the most successful American submarines of World War II. Four months after this picture
was taken she was lost with all hands while attempting to exit the Sea of Japan after sinking four ships for a
total of 13,000 tons. Her wartime total was 60,038 tons.

From that site.

RDP