[REL] Die Slowly Stage 13

[Redwine]

(LAST VERSION: "DIE SLOWLY STAGE 16")

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=586583#post586583




DIE SLOWLY STAGE 13 :

Hi all... after 13 stages of evolution and tests, i think so this tweaks are ready to share.

It is a team job made together with Pcelt, without his help, job and effort this pack of tweaks was not posible.

Many thanks to all people discusing and adding info into the forum....

Nothing amazing, just some small changes with lot of test, thats all.

It is just a small pack of tweaked files realted to ships and subs damage model.
It is only about damage, and some optionals related with survival probability.

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From the Readme :
############


Why these tweaks ?
################

The stock game has some anoying things, some merchants are to hard to sink, needs up to 10 torps according people reports, when battleships, even the Yamato, are too easy to destroy, some small battleships sinks with 2 or even a single torp, and the Yamato with only 3 torps.

Some battlesips has only 300 HP ! (Ise and Ise2) and Yamato 800, some heavy cruisers has 300 hitpoints, when some medium merchants has 300 and even 400 hitpoints, and some large merchants has 400 hitpoints.

And all destroyers has 400 HP... more than the Ise and Ise 2.

So, some times was so hard to sink a medium merchant than a heavy cruiser or even a small battleship as Maya.

Plus, some large and medium merchants has a behaviour into a builded test mission, but into the campaign, they seems to have not the same behaviour.

Those filled with fuel or ammo as load up, seems to have the same behaviour.

But there are some others, wich do not explodes, wich are so hard to sink, demanding up to 10 toprs.

Initially we think they are thos efiled with freight, but into a test mission those filled with freight
have not any problem, the remaining option is they may be empty ships.

You can roll back the weaked ships, but you must to take in account, with the reduced hitpoints, in example a conflictive Nippon Oiler, large modern tanker, filled with ammo or fule will take most of the times a single torp, ocasionally 2.

Filled with freight into a test mission, it takes most times 2 torps, and ocasionally 3.

Empty in campaign, it may need between 3 and 5.

But if you roll bak the files to stock hitpoints for all cargo ships, in example this ship, empty in campaign,can take up to 8 or even 10 torps.

Use of new .zon files with smaller hitpoint on merchants is reccomended.

The files .zon for Battleships and Heavy Cruisers has increased hitpoints.

The sub has some strange things as in example the knowed "Domino effect", wich can not be called a bug by sure, but if it is a "feature", it is very anoying.

When your sub take damage, wich happens too easy, after repairs, you have the mesage string mesage "Hull is repaired...sir!" and the voice mesage "Hull is intact...sir!".

It is very anoying because it a lie. Your hull is stressed and can have lot of damage.

With your hull stressed, your crush depth is not any more your "build" crush depth.

It is reduced dramatically. Some times you crush even if attempt to dive to periscope depth.

After lot of watch the files, can not found which trigger or controls this reduction in the crush depth.

The only way to live together with this feature, is to make the sub more strong and give you more chances to be able to dive, after take damage, almost at periscope depth, and if posible up to crash dive depth, to be able to scape from planes and DDs in the remaining time of the mission to be able to back home.

This set of tweaked files not solve it, the "Domino effect" is still present, but it is not too
pronunciated as before.

Most of the times, you will be able to hide your sub from enemies at periscope depth safelly, and most of the times you will be able to dive to crash depth, with no problems.

Often you will be able to reach even the thermal layer, but under 50m it is an unkow territory.

Under 50m you are not sure if you can be crushed suddently.

Of course 50m is not an exact value, it is uncertain, may happen at 45m or at 70m.




What Changes :
############

Battleships and Heavy Cruiser was made more strong to sink.

Some merchant ships, those conflictive ships, was made more weak.

Torpedoes was powered-up.

All flooding times for all ships was increased, now they sinks more slowly, you can wait for them to sink,or use more torps to terminate them quickly.

Planes was made more weak, AAA is good, but planes seems to be non destructible items.
Sub was made more strong.

Depth charges lethal radius was reduced, stock values are unrealistically exagerated, the lethal radiuswas reduced, but be ware, any way new values are bigger than in real life.

New values are a random value between 1.5 and 3 times the real life values, it is to not make the game so easy.

Many new FX effect added, not sure if all them works, but ingame tests are so spectacular.

Some aditional tweaks at user decision was added, they are important too, to survival probability.
.
.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


More detailed explanation inside readme, but i started to make changes and test, try and error, attempting to balance the hard to sink merchants and the too easy to sink battleships.
After this... we take hands on the anoying sub "domino" effect.
Any of both problems was solved at all, but now they happens not too often.

In most of the cases, after take severe damage, you will be able to safelly dive to periscope depth, and in most cases, to cash dive depth without the domino effect.

The domino effect is still present but it is not too intrusive now.

All, ships and subs, sinks more slowly now. All flooding times was increased for ships and subs.
Many hit points was changed, and was adjusted asymetrically when it was posible.

Torpedo power was rised up, but their damage radius was reduced sustancially to not spread the damage too much.

Depth chrages radius was reduced too, but still having stock damage power.

It is not a magamod, it is not intended to replace any of wonderful megamods like as Ducimus one, due to this fact, some tweaks wich can be present into some megamod was included as optionals.

One example... :

the radar fix, included into great Ducimus magamod, it is optional in this present mod, Ducimus follow a diferent way, if i am not wrong, he deactivated SD radar, and made the SJ to detect planes, this mod do not deactivated the SD radar, but it is capable to detect ships... two ways to make the same.

Then it is good you have the choice to preserve you present files as Ducimus ones if you are satisfied with them.

As wrote before, nothing amazing, nothing strange, just a fine polishement of the damage model, wich makes a small diference, may be you will like it or may be not.

Mod includes extended battery life and crush depths, not sure if the same values used by other modders, I use some web pages for battery life, and 1.5 test depth for crush depth, because it was sugested as historical security coheficient by people on this forum, may be the same used by CCIP but not sure.

Red needles was adjusted to round numbers between 12 and 15 meters over the crush depth according sub model, so you can reach them and be at few meters of the adjusted crush depth.

Some people found it enjoyable, then may be it is time to share it after 13 stages of evolution.

Good if into patch V1.3 the problems wich generates the existence of this mod can be fixed, because this mod do not, it only makes some anoying behaviours not happens too often, and add some small game play changes and effects.

Read each readme to more detailed explanation.

If you want to try...

Die Slowly Stage 14 :

(LAST VERSION: "DIE SLOWLY STAGE 16")

http://hosted.filefront.com/Redwine


Note: New optional sounds FX can cause a small FPS droop.
They are DDs and Cargo propellers sounds and depth charge explosion from inside the submarine, they are nice, but if you experience some FPS doops, just remove them.

You can have this level of damage, survive, and be able to dive to periscope depth, to crash depth, and even to reach the thermal layer with no "Domino" effect.





The changes made, generates some stange ways to sink... and some more frecuent FX effects.
You can see this kind of ship's damage often....
















Here you can see a DD wich is severe damaged, but not destroyed, it is "alive" yet, but with zero speed, semisubmerged, but it dont sinks, stay floating for ever.

[kakemann]

Fantastic news Redwine! Glad you took time to look at this issue! Will definately download at once!

Thanks a million!

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by kakemann

Fantastic news Redwine! Glad you took time to look at this issue! Will definately download at once!

Thanks a million!

You are welcome !

Do not say Fantastic yet, wait to test first !! :rotfl::rotfl:

I hate that issue... so i stoped all other jobs adapting SH III mods into SH IV to take hands on it.

Sadly, it is not posible for me to solve them.

The unsikable ships was, i think so, because they are empty, it needs to edit all campaing groups, when filled with cargo, fuel or ammo, there is no problem, any way, they takes smaller quantity of torps now, and it is good to have many difrent way to sink them ,and the uncertain if they will take a single torp or four.

About the sub, the domino effect is due to the hidden hull damage, this fact reduce dramatically the crush depth.

I was not able to found where to tweak this reduction, the only ways remains is to tweaks the hull resistence, but we must to be ware to not make the sub a supersub.

I think so it is an aceptable balance into the sub resistence and the domino reduction... any way, if you are hited by a well aimed depth charge, you are done...

For those who can found the tweaks a little hard, i think so not, there is the option to uncheck the "Realistic Repair Times" to improves the repair times.

Or not use the rediced radius depth charge files...

The test was made on a Salmon sub, with realistic repair time activated, and with normal crew asignement in first campaign patrol, you can improve you crew along the patrols.

S Class will be more weak, and Balao and Gato a little more strong.

Torpedo settings was tested with MK 14 and 23...

If you use MK 10 and 18 you will need more torps, and if you use the powerful MK 16 you may need less.

[Krupp]

I noticed that this mod returns the inadequate battery endurance. Six hour submerged travel (4kts) uses 50% of the battery juice. Is this correct?

[kakemann]

Good question. I use CCIP's improved battery life mod - is this something that could be added Redwine? Thanks a lot anyways!

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by kakemann

Good question. I use CCIP's improved battery life mod - is this something that could be added Redwine? Thanks a lot anyways!

Hi Kakemann ....

Sorry for not ask before, returning to my home yet now from a travel.

I really dont know what vales was used by CCIP.

I attempt to adjust values as near as posible to the historical data i found on the web.

For Gato and Balao, it was 100nm peace time, and 115nm war time at 3knots.

As i use 2 knots for silent running, i adjust values for 2knots, instead 3 knoes and rise the value from 115nm up to 130nm.

Other subs (except Porpoise) has an endurance of 48 hours at 2knots as historical data, it is 96nm at 2knots.

How i am not sure at all if files use nm or sm, i rise those values considering dat in files are statute miles, and set 110n.

About Porpoise, i cant found historical data, so i adjusted the stock value increased considering files use statute miles, (stock x 1.13) 86nm at 2knots.

Data :

Gato and Balao :

Historical : 100nm at 3knots peace time, 115nm at 3knots war time.
Adjusted : 130 at 2knots

Gar, Salmon, Tambor, Sargo, S Class :

(S Class unknow, assumed same as for Salmon ....etc.)

Historical : 48hs at 2knots, 96nm at 2knots.
Adjusted : 110 at 2knots.

Porpoise :

Historical : Unknow...
Adjusted : Stock x 1.13 at 2knots.

As you can see... all subs have values (just or over) the realistic values.

The problem may be... in my files, all values are adjusted on 2 knots.... any knot above 2 knots, reduce dramatically the endurance. If you adjust 3knots, or 4knots, or 5 knots.... the max range droops dramatically.

Remember resistence increase at power ratio with speed, then at 4 knots energy compsumed will be 4 times the energy of 2 knots. Then you MUST to have ONLY 25% of the max range at 2knots. Not sure if this is the coheficient used by the program... but the reduction is dramatic.

Why i use 2 knots ...? Because the real silent runing speed if i not remember bad, was 1.5 knots.

And... my badest situation was an scape when i was enforced to maintain silent running too much time.



Posibilities :

.zon files are related to sub resistence... not .sim files.

Then....

1]
You can use .sim CCIP's files, if you feel better with them.
The only changes made on them was related to surface, and submerged endurance.

2]
You can open the files using MiniTweaker from TimeTraveller, and adjust values at your pleasure.

But you must to take this present, if you adjust a determined value for 4knots in example... when you adjust 2knots for silent running, you may have the max range reduced.

Almost it is what happens for diesel surface endurance.

Any knot above... or under... the adjusted value, decrease dramatically the max range.

May happen into electric max range...

I can copy the CCIP values, but it is not needed, you can just use the .sim CCIP files and thats all

[kakemann]

Thanks a lot for good answer. If you already made changes from stock which is historically accurate - I wouldn't have to worry about that! Downloading! Thanks again, mate!

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by kakemann

Thanks a lot for good answer. If you already made changes from stock which is historically accurate - I wouldn't have to worry about that! Downloading! Thanks again, mate!

You are welcome...

That was my intention, but may be it is not exact accurate.

This is a test time, all feedbacks are welcome.

Any way all files are easy to modify, i can guide you or somebody to adjust changes to a diferent personal taste.

[9th_cow]

thank you !

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by 9th_cow

thank you !

Many thanks...!

For those who are using the mod... Stage 13d is last version updated just today.

I need comments as feed back to improve the mod, and fix any error or bad behaviour please.

[leovampire]

Looks like you already did what I was working on going to have to download yours and see how much like mine it is. I never downloaded any of your versions yet going to do so now.

Maybe the only difference is that I got all the 2d interiors installed and working.

thanks but, and no offence, SSSSHHHHHIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT! Because you got it out and working brfore I did! LOL

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by leovampire

Looks like you already did what I was working on going to have to download yours and see how much like mine it is. I never downloaded any of your versions yet going to do so now.

Maybe the only difference is that I got all the 2d interiors installed and working.

thanks but, and no offence, SSSSHHHHHIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT! Because you got it out and working brfore I did! LOL

Just test my files and send to me yours, may be we can pick up some of our settings and make a good blend !

I am just trying to upload a new version but FileFront is out of service from yesterday...

[leovampire]

I got them in mine and adjusted to work so that when a torpedo hole is created you can see the interior in that area.

Also I think the reason why sometimes torpedo's didn't make holes in ships was because there was nothing in that area behind it. See the dev's got rid of almost all of it in the patch for slow down problems and they didn't set them in the right places so sometimes the parts would stick out of the ships outer hull.

plus I found out you can intensify some of the stock explosions by adding values

for example:
In yours you have a line like this:
Effect2=#oil_explosion

but i found if you do this as in mine:
Effect3=#oil_explosion, 50

that extra value after the comma makes a difference

Plus the way the set up is in the game files the oil explosion tends to make a more fire type cloud than smoke because of the heat of the oil / fuel

were as the ammo explosion dosn't show as much heat in the cloud

Okay this is what I have for one of my engine rooms:

Crash Depth=100
CargoType=Oil
Effect1=#dc_bubbles, 50
Effect2=#Oil_trace, 100
Effect3=#oil_explosion, 50
Effect4=#Fire_medium, 25
Effect5=#Catastrofic_explosion, 50

With having oil in the cargoType it makes a difference in the way it all reacts
Also by setting up a Crash Depth with a value like I did when that part of the ship reaches
that depth and beyond you get secondary explosions underwater that you can hear through
the hydraphones like bulk heads giving away as it sinks. If you make different crush depths
for each section you get explosions under water at different depths and times. And also the
#dc_bubbles, 50 effect makes it look like the fuel / oil is heading to the surface of the ocean
as the ship sinks and looks kind of cool!

For example here is what I use for a Fuel Bunker:

Crash Depth=50
CargoType=Fuel
Effect1=#dc_bubbles, 50
Effect2=#Oil_trace, 100
Effect3=#oil_explosion, 100
Effect4=#Fire_medium, 50
Effect5=#Catastrofic_explosion, 100

Like I said in the private message to you I have been working on this for
a couple of months but I am glad that you got it out for people to enjoy
some of what I have in my own game. You just got it done and out before
I did LOL! Well done Redwine!!! great work!

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by leovampire

I got them in mine and adjusted to work so that when a torpedo hole is created you can see the interior in that area.

The ship interior is showed after a torpedo hole is created, the level of this detail is into game options, but to see well the ship interior after a torpedo impact, you need to increase the torpedo damage radius.

I do not like this way, because it spread too much the damage to the adyacent compartements and reduce the ships detroy time.

My intenption was to cause too much different ways to sink, but many or most of them...slowly.

I hate the 10 seconds sinks of the stock game.

Originally Posted by leovampire

Also I think the reason why sometimes torpedo's didn't make holes in ships was because there was nothing in that area behind it. See the dev's got rid of almost all of it in the patch for slow down problems and they didn't set them in the right places so sometimes the parts would stick out of the ships outer hull.

It is not too clear up to now, the damage caused by the torpedo hit is not always the same, it is a combined result of a random explosion radius and a random explosion power.

It depend of you max and min settings into your files... plus... another extra parameter is working, the magnetic detonation range, so if you have by random, a min radius with min or low power, exploding at max magnetic pistol detonation range... you can have no hole.

Plus in the files, the torpedo effectivity deppends on angle of attack too, wich can cause variations on effects.

Originally Posted by leovampire

plus I found out you can intensify some of the stock explosions by adding values

for example:
In yours you have a line like this:
Effect2=#oil_explosion

but i found if you do this as in mine:
Effect3=#oil_explosion, 50

that extra value after the comma makes a difference

That is a personal taste, with no comma and value, it is at defaul setting, wich means it will happens at 100 % of the hitpoints.
It is at total compartement destroy.

If you add a value, sure it make diference, in your example it will happens at 50 % of the total damage.

It is posible to set it at (, 1) 1% and you wiull have a lot of effects, but we must to maintain the effects without to enter into an abusive quantity.

Of curse it a matter of personal taste.

[quote=leovampire] Okay this is what I have for one of my engine rooms:

Crash Depth=100
CargoType=Oil
Effect1=#dc_bubbles, 50
Effect2=#Oil_trace, 100
Effect3=#oil_explosion, 50
Effect4=#Fire_medium, 25
Effect5=#Catastrofic_explosion, 50

With having oil in the cargoType it makes a difference in the way it all reacts.

Sure... the effect is amazing with fuel or ammo.

Originally Posted by leovampire

Also by setting up a Crash Depth with a value like I did when that part of the ship reaches
that depth and beyond you get secondary explosions underwater that you can hear through
the hydraphones like bulk heads giving away as it sinks. If you make different crush depths
for each section you get explosions under water at different depths and times.

The crash depth is not the crush depth, it is the max depth at wich the game modellates the 3D object, not related with a real crush depth. (almost taht was into SH III)

The secondary explosion happens in my settings too, the quantity of them deppend on particular settings, if you make the compartements slow destructibles, may be the sinking ship reachs the crash depth, the game stops to modellates the ships, and this secondary explosions do not happens.

If you play a lot with the settings, you will foeund they change, any way, the way to increase them, may be not in concordance to have a slow way to sink.

Some times when you change some settings, and improve some effects, you ruins another set of effects.

Originally Posted by leovampire

And also the
#dc_bubbles, 50 effect makes it look like the fuel / oil is heading to the surface of the ocean
as the ship sinks and looks kind of cool!

For example here is what I use for a Fuel Bunker:

Crash Depth=50
CargoType=Fuel
Effect1=#dc_bubbles, 50
Effect2=#Oil_trace, 100
Effect3=#oil_explosion, 100
Effect4=#Fire_medium, 50
Effect5=#Catastrofic_explosion, 100

My mod is not finished, it is work in progress, your settings sound interesting, but as i wrote before, i think so we must not to fall into an abusive or masive quantity of effects, for two reasons, it may be looks a little unreal, and it cause a big droop into FPS.
I am not too worry about unreal effects, after all it is a game and i want amazing screen shots, but to have always amazing effects may be the same as to have not htem always.

I think so the objective must be the surprise, you never must to know how the ship will sinks....

Any way, you can try to reduce the value after comma, to have those effects a little bit early, you use often the value 100, wich means the effect will be shoot after 100% of compartement damage, but as wrote before, be ware about FPS, not all people have a top end computer, i have a PIV 3.4, ATI X800 XT PE and 3Gb RAM and my FPS ofetn droops under 25 FPS when those effects happens.

Originally Posted by leovampire

Like I said in the private message to you I have been working on this for
a couple of months but I am glad that you got it out for people to enjoy
some of what I have in my own game. You just got it done and out before
I did LOL! Well done Redwine!!! great work!

Many thanks for the compliments, and about your job, you say nothing before, if not sure i was happy to help you sharing my experience...

Remember my mod do not only tweak the ship damage, it tweaks the sub damage too to reduce the Domino effect.

Plus add some other twaeks related to survive probability too, as Depth charges, radar and more...

Ask what you need...

[Redwine]

Last UPDATE :

June 04 2007

Version : "Die Slowly Stage 13e"

It includes a new reworked textures for Torpedo Hit Splashes and other effects.

The diference between "Stage 13", and "Stage 13a", b,..... e, are some new FX effects.

Download here :

http://hosted.filefront.com/Redwine