Shallow water escapes from DD's?

Chock · 05-03-07, 06:47 PM

Depends on how 'realistic' you want to be.

We all know that in SH4 it's fairly easy to get the sort of score that would have seen you being voted in as the next President of the US. But that's because there is no danger in taking chances with your virtual sub. Which is why SH tonnage scores are usually way in excess of the real figures.

In real life of course things are very different; even if you personally had the balls (or stupidity) to choose an engagement in shallow water, as opposed to picking a place to engage where you have a better tactical advantage. I doubt very much whether your crew would appreciate you risking their lives in such a manner, and responsibility towards the welfare of your crew, and your boat is an imporant consideration too, even in a simulation.

So if you want to emulate a realistic sub patrol, here are a couple of quotes from Sun Tzu's The Art of War which might prove useful...

'The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness.'

'With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete. This is the method of attacking by stratagem.'

Notice that SunTzu lists wisdom before courage! In other words, sometimes it is better to leave a target alone and go for a better opportunity. A glorious five minute battle which results in the loss of your sub is not a good substitute for a boat which survives to fight again and again!

Not everything in The Art of War stands up as a paragon of wisdom of course, but there are lots of bits of it which are useful to adopt. However, if you prefer a couple of assesments of the smart way to fight a war from more recent times, try these:

Douglas Bader's take on things: 'War is not a game of cricket.' - by which he meant that offering the enemy a sporting chance to shoot back is alright for sport, but in war the reality is that it's better to shoot someone in the back while they aren't looking if you want to win.

Manfred Von Richtofen: 'It's the job a fighting pilot to destroy the enemy, anything else is rubbish.' - by which he meant that although he was often accused of taking on planes which were at a disadvantage, and refusing to give people a 'sporting chance', it was not his job to be sporting, it was his job to kill people and survive to be able to do it again and again. And if that meant nailing some poor RFC flyer with a few hours of flight experience flying an inferior aeroplane, that that was their tough luck. If his enemy was at a tactical advantage, then it made perfect sense to not even get into a fight in the first place.

So the biggest tip I can suggest is to choose your battleground more wisely, and then kick the S.O.B.s while they aren't looking.

The scenario in the original post is one where you would have to weigh up the pros and cons of sinking a ship and risking your sub, versus passing it by and looking for a target where the outcome was more assured, and then being in a position to do it again and again.

I'd personally go for living to fight another day and the possibility of more tonnage for less risk. Engaging in shallow water with destroyers about is just asking for trouble. Especially as, in real life, the enemy wouldn't even need sonar, they'd be able to look over the side and see you under the water, especially with help from an aeroplane, which you could be damn sure they would radio for.

Therefore, the best way to avoid being attacked in shallow water, is to not get into a fight in shallow water.

zylark · 05-03-07, 07:29 PM

It is just that risk assesement that makes this a sim, and not just another game.

jerryt · 05-04-07, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock

Douglas Bader's take on things: 'War is not a game of cricket.' - by which he meant that offering the enemy a sporting chance to shoot back is alright for sport, but in war the reality is that it's better to shoot someone in the back while they aren't looking if you want to win.

Manfred Von Richtofen: 'It's the job a fighting pilot to destroy the enemy, anything else is rubbish.' - by which he meant that although he was often accused of taking on planes which were at a disadvantage, and refusing to give people a 'sporting chance', it was not his job to be sporting, it was his job to kill people and survive to be able to do it again and again. And if that meant nailing some poor RFC flyer with a few hours of flight experience flying an inferior aeroplane, that that was their tough luck. If his enemy was at a tactical advantage, then it made perfect sense to not even get into a fight in the first place.

I really need to send this to the morons in the US Congress.

BBury · 05-04-07, 03:43 PM

I went dead silent on the floor of Java Sea. The DD's circled aorund looking and after a couple hours they found and killed me. That really made me mad. I didn't think it was possible sitting quitly on the bottom but with AI I guess anything's possible.

SteamWake · 05-04-07, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBury

I went dead silent on the floor of Java Sea. The DD's circled aorund looking and after a couple hours they found and killed me. That really made me mad. I didn't think it was possible sitting quitly on the bottom but with AI I guess anything's possible.

One would think that it would be fairly easy to see a large submarine sitting on the bottom in shallow water in crystal clear water.

Calbeck · 05-04-07, 03:58 PM

If you're not plowing around whipping up a bow wave and wake, AND the water is exceptionally calm. Any waves of any kind can and will distort images, not to mention potentially draw clouds of silt from the sea bottom.

Silence · 05-04-07, 04:05 PM

I understand a common tactic for all subs is to sprint and drift, doing each for a set amount of time and constantly changing directions. Has worked for me thus far in only my second mission. Have found the DD's to be a little soft though, as I haven't had close calls with them yet. Am I being too careful? :hmm:

jerryt · 05-04-07, 04:31 PM

Did they fix the taking damage from sitting on the bottom thing with 1.2? I remember trying this with 1.1, and my sub kept taking damage. I'll have to try it again tonight.

Kant Schwimm · 05-04-07, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerryt

Did they fix the taking damage from sitting on the bottom thing with 1.2? I remember trying this with 1.1, and my sub kept taking damage. I'll have to try it again tonight.

Hmm in 1.1 and 1.2 I just drift to the bottom carefully without propulsion, never seem to take damage, maybe just your approach angle and speed thats the prob.

BBury · 05-05-07, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBury

I went dead silent on the floor of Java Sea. The DD's circled aorund looking and after a couple hours they found and killed me. That really made me mad. I didn't think it was possible sitting quitly on the bottom but with AI I guess anything's possible.

One would think that it would be fairly easy to see a large submarine sitting on the bottom in shallow water in crystal clear water.

I could see that if it was light enough outside. :hmm: I think it was the improved escorts mod. They could hear the cook cleaning his toe nails and came over a couple of miles to see what it was.

05-04-07, 03:58 PM	#6
Calbeck Sailor man Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Phoenix, Land of AZ Posts: 49 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	If you're not plowing around whipping up a bow wave and wake, AND the water is exceptionally calm. Any waves of any kind can and will distort images, not to mention potentially draw clouds of silt from the sea bottom. __________________ "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of fanboys suddenly cried out in joy and won't shut the frak up." --- PsyOps

05-04-07, 04:31 PM	#8
jerryt Loader Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queen Creek, AZ. USA Posts: 88 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Did they fix the taking damage from sitting on the bottom thing with 1.2? I remember trying this with 1.1, and my sub kept taking damage. I'll have to try it again tonight. __________________ JerryT

05-03-07, 06:47 PM	#1
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Depends on how 'realistic' you want to be. We all know that in SH4 it's fairly easy to get the sort of score that would have seen you being voted in as the next President of the US. But that's because there is no danger in taking chances with your virtual sub. Which is why SH tonnage scores are usually way in excess of the real figures. In real life of course things are very different; even if you personally had the balls (or stupidity) to choose an engagement in shallow water, as opposed to picking a place to engage where you have a better tactical advantage. I doubt very much whether your crew would appreciate you risking their lives in such a manner, and responsibility towards the welfare of your crew, and your boat is an imporant consideration too, even in a simulation. So if you want to emulate a realistic sub patrol, here are a couple of quotes from Sun Tzu's The Art of War which might prove useful... 'The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness.' 'With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete. This is the method of attacking by stratagem.' Notice that SunTzu lists wisdom before courage! In other words, sometimes it is better to leave a target alone and go for a better opportunity. A glorious five minute battle which results in the loss of your sub is not a good substitute for a boat which survives to fight again and again! Not everything in The Art of War stands up as a paragon of wisdom of course, but there are lots of bits of it which are useful to adopt. However, if you prefer a couple of assesments of the smart way to fight a war from more recent times, try these: Douglas Bader's take on things: 'War is not a game of cricket.' - by which he meant that offering the enemy a sporting chance to shoot back is alright for sport, but in war the reality is that it's better to shoot someone in the back while they aren't looking if you want to win. Manfred Von Richtofen: 'It's the job a fighting pilot to destroy the enemy, anything else is rubbish.' - by which he meant that although he was often accused of taking on planes which were at a disadvantage, and refusing to give people a 'sporting chance', it was not his job to be sporting, it was his job to kill people and survive to be able to do it again and again. And if that meant nailing some poor RFC flyer with a few hours of flight experience flying an inferior aeroplane, that that was their tough luck. If his enemy was at a tactical advantage, then it made perfect sense to not even get into a fight in the first place. So the biggest tip I can suggest is to choose your battleground more wisely, and then kick the S.O.B.s while they aren't looking. The scenario in the original post is one where you would have to weigh up the pros and cons of sinking a ship and risking your sub, versus passing it by and looking for a target where the outcome was more assured, and then being in a position to do it again and again. I'd personally go for living to fight another day and the possibility of more tonnage for less risk. Engaging in shallow water with destroyers about is just asking for trouble. Especially as, in real life, the enemy wouldn't even need sonar, they'd be able to look over the side and see you under the water, especially with help from an aeroplane, which you could be damn sure they would radio for. Therefore, the best way to avoid being attacked in shallow water, is to not get into a fight in shallow water.

05-03-07, 07:29 PM	#2
zylark Loader Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 84 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It is just that risk assesement that makes this a sim, and not just another game.

05-04-07, 03:43 PM	#4
BBury Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 118 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	I went dead silent on the floor of Java Sea. The DD's circled aorund looking and after a couple hours they found and killed me. That really made me mad. I didn't think it was possible sitting quitly on the bottom but with AI I guess anything's possible.

05-04-07, 04:05 PM	#7
Silence Watch Join Date: May 2007 Location: Nebraska, U.S. Posts: 17 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I understand a common tactic for all subs is to sprint and drift, doing each for a set amount of time and constantly changing directions. Has worked for me thus far in only my second mission. Have found the DD's to be a little soft though, as I haven't had close calls with them yet. Am I being too careful? :hmm: