Soviet War Memorial in Estonia

August · 05-02-07, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz

As for the graves themselves I can't think of any country which would have a memorial to occupying troops anywhere let alone a town centre.

Which says a lot for the Estonians IMO. They're moving both graves and monument to a military cemetary showing a lot more respect for enemy dead than the Russians ever displayed to their enemies.

joea · 05-02-07, 02:20 AM

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

kurtz · 05-02-07, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

I'm not forgetting that but from the BBC;
After a pact between Hitler and Stalin, Soviet troops arrived in 1940 and Estonia was absorbed into the Soviet Union. Nazi forces pushed the Soviets out in 1941 but the Red Army returned in 1944 and remained for half a century.

Seems to me the Russians were collaborating with the Nazis:hmm: .

joea · 05-02-07, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

I'm not forgetting that but from the BBC;
After a pact between Hitler and Stalin, Soviet troops arrived in 1940 and Estonia was absorbed into the Soviet Union. Nazi forces pushed the Soviets out in 1941 but the Red Army returned in 1944 and remained for half a century.

Seems to me the Russians were collaborating with the Nazis:hmm: .

True that was pretty unsavoury, but then Adolph and Joe both knew they would come to blows sooner or later, they were trying to buy time...not that it mattered to the Baltic Republics or Poles. Then too, many in the West were rather favourable to the Nazis...including in the UK as well as France.

XabbaRus · 05-02-07, 06:40 AM

Hmmm, there was a better way this could have been done. And the timing of the removal of the monument I believe is entirely deliberate in order to provoke the Russian population who however they got there make up 25% of the population. They could have waited until after the 9th of May.

Also talk about pot calling kettle black. Do they tell you that there is active discrimination going on in Estonia towards ethnically Russians who live there. They can't get citizenship, they are excluded from various benefits. Many have also been removed from their homes in favour of ethnic Estonians. They don't mention that, and yet the Estonian government was accepted into the EU even though this discrimination is evident and documented and the government has the temerity to announce that effectively Russia is attacking the EU.

It is made to sound so simple on the BBC website, poor Estonians, bad naught nasty Russians.

Also do they ever mention the 22 concentration camps on Estonian soil during the war run by Estonians none the less or that fewer 12 Estonian Jews are thought to have survived the war in Estonia. This isn't mentioned.

Oh there has been an apology and a monument but still WWII, Russians bad, bad.

I would also like to refer you to this article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...054299,00.html

I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP.

Seriously guys, dig deeper and read the other side why the Russians are upset, both those in Estonia and out.

Then again I get the feeling that few will have sympathy for the Russians in Estonia and dismiss the discrimination claims as propoganda.

The Avon Lady · 05-02-07, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP.

Perhaps he was dressing up as Prince Harry? :hmm:

Heibges · 05-02-07, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

Many people from all of Russia's neighbors sided with the Germans, at least at the start of the invasion. One, they hated Russia. Two, they hated Jews.

For folks in Eastern Europe there was little difference in Russian foreign policy, and Soviet foreign policy.

XabbaRus · 05-02-07, 03:34 PM

Ah if only things were that simple.

Happy Times · 05-03-07, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Ah if only things were that simple.

This conflict is simple. Estonia is a sovereign nation that can do anything it wants with its monuments, period. The fact is that Estonia was occupied by Soviet Union but Russia doesnt admit to this fact. It pisses me of to see Russians in Estonia rioting and yelling "Rossia"! Are they maybe living in the wrong country if they feel like that? Russia is also wageing a huge disinformation campaign through the media, A la FSB.
I am a frequent visitor to Estonia, i have an Estonian gf and the town i live in has a large Estonian minority. My experience with Estonias ethnic Russians is that most of them live in the past, they are bitter that they are not in power anymore. Some even refuse to learn Estonian, hence not having citizenship.. I believe big reason is the state controlled Russian media, that they mainly follow, that manipulates them a lot.
The attacks on Estonias internet connections and ambassadors of Estonia and Sweden happened with Putins blessing, we all know it.
The thing that pissed the Finns on a big scale in this conflict was when Russia said Finland should give special status guranteed by law to the 50.000 Russians living in Finland. They have lived here for something like 10-15 years!! And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO. Emotions and hatred are building up in the Baltic region, people talk about violent acts towards the Russians. Most think the Russians have gone too far and want to hear apologies but we know that will never happen. Maybe other EU and NATO countries should start to wake up on this situation by now, before it goes any futher.

Happy Times · 05-03-07, 07:46 AM

Quote:

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.

Are you serious?! Thats BS, give me some source that isnt Russian. Russia is the only country in the region with extreme nationalism on the rise..

XabbaRus · 05-03-07, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Quote:

That's a shame and quite callous. Even if the government didn't care about them no need to join them. There was a better way to do this and I believe the Estonian government deliberately chose this time of year to move it. There has been a strong upsurge of nationalism in Estonia of late with a rise of the far right.

Are you serious?! Thats BS, give me some source that isnt Russian. Russia is the only country in the region with extreme nationalism on the rise..

Really you didn't read the article in the Guardian. Sorry it was teh Guardian guess taht is too lefty liberal.

Dowly · 05-03-07, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Times

And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO.

Now this one made me angry when I heard about it. The russians are basically threatening us not to join NATO or else Finland would come a threat to Russia and Russia would have to move more troops to the border regions to "be safe". I think Putin is becoming a tad paranoid, dont you think?

Happy Times · 05-03-07, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Times

And the next day they said Finland should stay of NATO.

Now this one made me angry when I heard about it. The russians are basically threatening us not to join NATO or else Finland would come a threat to Russia and Russia would have to move more troops to the border regions to "be safe". I think Putin is becoming a tad paranoid, dont you think?

He is not paranoid, he just wants to restore what was lost. He has said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a geopolitical catastrophy. But he must be crazy letting things this far. Any moment Russians could be attacked in Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania or Sweden. Then this will come even bigger crisis.

joea · 05-02-07, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heibges

Many people from all of Russia's neighbors sided with the Germans, at least at the start of the invasion. One, they hated Russia. Two, they hated Jews.

For folks in Eastern Europe there was little difference in Russian foreign policy, and Soviet foreign policy.

Ok hating Russia (the big bear next door) fine, but hating Jews and helping exterminate them was ok cause Russia/the Soviet Union oppressed you???

Dowly · 05-02-07, 05:02 PM

Stalin had just killed ~20mil people before the war started. Who would feel comfortable as his allie? :p

And what comes to the graves of the soviet soldiers, I couldnt care less what happened to them. The soviet government didnt care (We had to bury most of the soviet soldiers whom died on finnish soil), so why would I?

05-02-07, 06:40 AM	#5
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Hmmm, there was a better way this could have been done. And the timing of the removal of the monument I believe is entirely deliberate in order to provoke the Russian population who however they got there make up 25% of the population. They could have waited until after the 9th of May. Also talk about pot calling kettle black. Do they tell you that there is active discrimination going on in Estonia towards ethnically Russians who live there. They can't get citizenship, they are excluded from various benefits. Many have also been removed from their homes in favour of ethnic Estonians. They don't mention that, and yet the Estonian government was accepted into the EU even though this discrimination is evident and documented and the government has the temerity to announce that effectively Russia is attacking the EU. It is made to sound so simple on the BBC website, poor Estonians, bad naught nasty Russians. Also do they ever mention the 22 concentration camps on Estonian soil during the war run by Estonians none the less or that fewer 12 Estonian Jews are thought to have survived the war in Estonia. This isn't mentioned. Oh there has been an apology and a monument but still WWII, Russians bad, bad. I would also like to refer you to this article http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...054299,00.html I am also looking for an article which is about the son of an Estonian MP who dressed up as an SS officer and went to a party replete with Hitler salutes etc, and this guy was also an MEP. Seriously guys, dig deeper and read the other side why the Russians are upset, both those in Estonia and out. Then again I get the feeling that few will have sympathy for the Russians in Estonia and dismiss the discrimination claims as propoganda. __________________

05-02-07, 03:34 PM	#8
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Ah if only things were that simple. __________________

05-02-07, 02:20 AM	#2
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Gents are we forgetting most of the ordinary Soviet soldiers were fighting an enemy that invaded their homeland, not for conquest (even if it happened after the war of course) and that more than a few Estonians not only collaborated but were in the SS as well.

05-02-07, 05:02 PM	#15
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,055 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Stalin had just killed ~20mil people before the war started. Who would feel comfortable as his allie? :p And what comes to the graves of the soviet soldiers, I couldnt care less what happened to them. The soviet government didnt care (We had to bury most of the soviet soldiers whom died on finnish soil), so why would I?