Whats with the aft tubes?

TDK1044 · 05-01-07, 06:53 AM

For large Convoy's, they're very useful. Last night I fired my six main torpedoes, and then while those tubes were being reloaded I turned and fired my 4 aft torps. This allowed me to fire ten torpedoes in under two minutes. I sank 6 ships.

Chock · 05-01-07, 07:24 AM

I sometimes use my aft tubes first, if it is a slow-moving convoy, which leaves my forward tubes ready for when things heat up a bit. Try it some time, you might like it.

They are also good when you get in a convoy, allowing you to engage in two directions, which (historically at least) would help to disguise your position a bit.

And if none of that appeals, try popping some at a pursuing destroyer in a spread, that occasionally works too, and is funny as hell when it does.

perisher · 05-01-07, 08:23 AM

Historically, WW1 and just after, as subs got larger they had tubes facing all directions, including beam tubes (these could not be reloaded at sea). Pretty soon the beam tubes were dropped as a bad idea. (Difficult to use and took up a lot of space). Many navies kept the stern tubes, they could be useful but they were much more difficult to use than the bow tubes. The problem was getting a good angle while moving away from your target. Eventually everyone dropped the idea. First to lose it were the British, although the S and T class boats retained an external stern tube. That is, of course, a one shot only tube. As built the T class also had two rearward firing external tubes mounted one either side of the conning tower. These were turned around in a field mod and made to shoot forward, giving the T boats an initial bow salvo of 10 fish. That was six in the bow tubes, plus two external bow tubes in the casing directly above the normal tubes and the two amidships externals.

Between the wars the French experimented with destroyer style rotating tubes on the decks of their larger "cruiser" submarines.

Today, computer aided aiming systems would make stern tubes as easy to use as bow tubes but the stern tubes would seriously interfere with modern streamlining.

Mudrik · 05-01-07, 08:23 AM

I quite often use my aft tubes, both in the ways that TDK1044 & Chock describe but also I like to engage a convoy with bow tubes, dive underneath the convoy and once past engage again with aft tubes. This then leaves me with open water ahead to make my escape.

Must admit though that I've never managed to sink a persuing destroyer. Their senses seem too sharp so I now don't even bother trying to engage and save my ammo for merchants.

7Enigma · 05-01-07, 08:36 AM

From a theoretical and safety (of the ship and crew) standpoint, it would actually be beneficial to have ALL tubes AFT. This would allow you to lay and wait for your prey, fire off a salvo, then immediately be able to leave as directly as possible.

Having tubes foreward requires a sub to fire at their target, then evade by first moving CLOSER to the target while turning away. I know if it was my arse on the line, I would prefer to have the immediate exit rather then having to turn away as my ship is being hunted....

perisher · 05-01-07, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

From a theoretical and safety (of the ship and crew) standpoint, it would actually be beneficial to have ALL tubes AFT. This would allow you to lay and wait for your prey, fire off a salvo, then immediately be able to leave as directly as possible.
...

Not so easy in real life, submarines are not humming birds, to quote the guys at NYGM Tonnage War. You cannot get ahead of a convoy, go to periscope depth and just hover there waiting for your prey to cross your sights. You have to keep the boat moving or it will not maintain depth, it will either go up or go down but it will not stay at a constant depth. The game will let you do this, but a real submarine could not.

7Enigma · 05-01-07, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

From a theoretical and safety (of the ship and crew) standpoint, it would actually be beneficial to have ALL tubes AFT. This would allow you to lay and wait for your prey, fire off a salvo, then immediately be able to leave as directly as possible.
...

Not so easy in real life, submarines are not humming birds, to quote the guys at NYGM Tonnage War. You cannot get ahead of a convoy, go to periscope depth and just hover there waiting for your prey to cross your sights. You have to keep the boat moving or it will not maintain depth, it will either go up or go down but it will not stay at a constant depth. The game will let you do this, but a real submarine could not.

So how about this then :p :

Do your typical 90-degree attack with foreward tubes at very low speed (say 1kt just to keep your depth), then go back 1/3'rd and dive to escape. I'm curious at how inefficient reverse is as opposed to normal foreward movement, and also if there was a significant increase in noise as compared to normal operation. And obviously the aft dive planes would be less effective, but the tradeoff might be worth it to get distance between your target and escorts quicker?

perisher · 05-01-07, 09:44 AM

I seriously doubt that a submarine ever went astern except when manoeuvring in harbour, all ships are difficult to handle going astern and I would imagine that depth keeping going astern was next to impossible. I read something abourt this recently but I can't find it right now.

When I use my stern tubes, I approach on a parallel track to my target(s), when I am ready I turn sharply away and increase speed, as my firing angle comes on I slow the boat, centre the rudder and fire. If I want to evade I put the rudder back on, go to flank and dive, once under 200 ft I cut to 1/3, rig for silent and make a 90 degree turn.

Having said that, on my last patrol I got target fixation and ended up too close for the bow shot, so I went under my target and took him with the stern tubes.

SingeDebile · 05-01-07, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

From a theoretical and safety (of the ship and crew) standpoint, it would actually be beneficial to have ALL tubes AFT. This would allow you to lay and wait for your prey, fire off a salvo, then immediately be able to leave as directly as possible.

Having tubes foreward requires a sub to fire at their target, then evade by first moving CLOSER to the target while turning away. I know if it was my arse on the line, I would prefer to have the immediate exit rather then having to turn away as my ship is being hunted....

i like this

deamyont · 05-01-07, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

From a theoretical and safety (of the ship and crew) standpoint, it would actually be beneficial to have ALL tubes AFT. This would allow you to lay and wait for your prey, fire off a salvo, then immediately be able to leave as directly as possible.

Having tubes foreward requires a sub to fire at their target, then evade by first moving CLOSER to the target while turning away. I know if it was my arse on the line, I would prefer to have the immediate exit rather then having to turn away as my ship is being hunted....

With all tubes aft, the sub would need to make a 180 degree turn after aproaching a convoy. This would take a lot of time at silent running at 2 knots, time it dont have. Also, it would show of the biggest possible signature towards all directions...

And youre not diving towards the threat. When attacking the convoy the escorts are on your sides, and even behind. Youre diving towards a harmless merchant.

No, all tubes bow. Aproach convoy stealthy, fire all torpedoes and crash dive. Escorts hear you but its to late for the ships in the convoy to evade the torpedoes. Even if the smaller ships might be agile enough to turn, they cant because of the other ships around them. While crash diving, turn. It looks like you dive towards the targets but youre now sailing away. And the escorts cant hear you over the sounds of sinking ships...

I like that over the scenario when you sneak in, and take minutes of extra time turning, giving escorts a chance to kill you before you even fired.

In real life, do you think they would like the idea of taking a huge fleet submarine inside a convoy, rather than to stay at safe range?

7Enigma · 05-02-07, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deamyont

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

From a theoretical and safety (of the ship and crew) standpoint, it would actually be beneficial to have ALL tubes AFT. This would allow you to lay and wait for your prey, fire off a salvo, then immediately be able to leave as directly as possible.

Having tubes foreward requires a sub to fire at their target, then evade by first moving CLOSER to the target while turning away. I know if it was my arse on the line, I would prefer to have the immediate exit rather then having to turn away as my ship is being hunted....

With all tubes aft, the sub would need to make a 180 degree turn after aproaching a convoy. This would take a lot of time at silent running at 2 knots, time it dont have. Also, it would show of the biggest possible signature towards all directions...

And youre not diving towards the threat. When attacking the convoy the escorts are on your sides, and even behind. Youre diving towards a harmless merchant.

No, all tubes bow. Aproach convoy stealthy, fire all torpedoes and crash dive. Escorts hear you but its to late for the ships in the convoy to evade the torpedoes. Even if the smaller ships might be agile enough to turn, they cant because of the other ships around them. While crash diving, turn. It looks like you dive towards the targets but youre now sailing away. And the escorts cant hear you over the sounds of sinking ships...

I like that over the scenario when you sneak in, and take minutes of extra time turning, giving escorts a chance to kill you before you even fired.

In real life, do you think they would like the idea of taking a huge fleet submarine inside a convoy, rather than to stay at safe range?

My quote was based on the assumption that you were already past the intersection point, not that you were running towards it. It was mentioned that my idea was not practical due to the lack of hovering ability that the game allows (finding a likely intersection point and then idling aft tubes facing the enemy). So you would need to pass the intersection point and then very slowly (1kt) move away from your target(s), while readying your aft tubes.

This could definitely be done as you had described to good effect IF you were far enough ahead of the target so a long slow turnaround could be performed at a deep depth.

SteamWake · 05-01-07, 08:39 AM

I have tried unsuccessfully to attack pursuing destroyers from astern and from the bow. Typically using a beneath the keel shot with zero success.

The DD usually veers out of the torpedos path or the torpedo fails to detonate.

In fact the only DD's I have claimed never new what hit them.

But the stern tubes are usefull they just take a little more planning to set up a shot.

sunvalleyslim · 05-02-07, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

I have tried unsuccessfully to attack pursuing destroyers from astern and from the bow. Typically using a beneath the keel shot with zero success.

The DD usually veers out of the torpedos path or the torpedo fails to detonate.

In fact the only DD's I have claimed never new what hit them.

But the stern tubes are usefull they just take a little more planning to set up a shot.

Steamwake,
When encountering a DD bearing down on you, I go for a 0 angle on the bow of the DD. And I wait until he's less than 800 meters from me. In Sh3 it worked almost everytime. Mush Morton (USN) used the "down the throat" shot quite effectively in the war

05-01-07, 08:23 AM	#3
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Historically, WW1 and just after, as subs got larger they had tubes facing all directions, including beam tubes (these could not be reloaded at sea). Pretty soon the beam tubes were dropped as a bad idea. (Difficult to use and took up a lot of space). Many navies kept the stern tubes, they could be useful but they were much more difficult to use than the bow tubes. The problem was getting a good angle while moving away from your target. Eventually everyone dropped the idea. First to lose it were the British, although the S and T class boats retained an external stern tube. That is, of course, a one shot only tube. As built the T class also had two rearward firing external tubes mounted one either side of the conning tower. These were turned around in a field mod and made to shoot forward, giving the T boats an initial bow salvo of 10 fish. That was six in the bow tubes, plus two external bow tubes in the casing directly above the normal tubes and the two amidships externals. Between the wars the French experimented with destroyer style rotating tubes on the decks of their larger "cruiser" submarines. Today, computer aided aiming systems would make stern tubes as easy to use as bow tubes but the stern tubes would seriously interfere with modern streamlining. __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

05-01-07, 09:44 AM	#8
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I seriously doubt that a submarine ever went astern except when manoeuvring in harbour, all ships are difficult to handle going astern and I would imagine that depth keeping going astern was next to impossible. I read something abourt this recently but I can't find it right now. When I use my stern tubes, I approach on a parallel track to my target(s), when I am ready I turn sharply away and increase speed, as my firing angle comes on I slow the boat, centre the rudder and fire. If I want to evade I put the rudder back on, go to flank and dive, once under 200 ft I cut to 1/3, rig for silent and make a 90 degree turn. Having said that, on my last patrol I got target fixation and ended up too close for the bow shot, so I went under my target and took him with the stern tubes. __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

05-01-07, 06:53 AM	#1
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	For large Convoy's, they're very useful. Last night I fired my six main torpedoes, and then while those tubes were being reloaded I turned and fired my 4 aft torps. This allowed me to fire ten torpedoes in under two minutes. I sank 6 ships.

05-01-07, 07:24 AM	#2
Chock Sea Lord Join Date: May 2005 Location: Under a thermal layer in chilly Olde England Posts: 1,842 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I sometimes use my aft tubes first, if it is a slow-moving convoy, which leaves my forward tubes ready for when things heat up a bit. Try it some time, you might like it. They are also good when you get in a convoy, allowing you to engage in two directions, which (historically at least) would help to disguise your position a bit. And if none of that appeals, try popping some at a pursuing destroyer in a spread, that occasionally works too, and is funny as hell when it does.

05-01-07, 08:23 AM	#4
Mudrik Gunner Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: passing thermal layer, silent running Posts: 94 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I quite often use my aft tubes, both in the ways that TDK1044 & Chock describe but also I like to engage a convoy with bow tubes, dive underneath the convoy and once past engage again with aft tubes. This then leaves me with open water ahead to make my escape. Must admit though that I've never managed to sink a persuing destroyer. Their senses seem too sharp so I now don't even bother trying to engage and save my ammo for merchants.

05-01-07, 08:36 AM	#5
7Enigma Helmsman Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 103 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	From a theoretical and safety (of the ship and crew) standpoint, it would actually be beneficial to have ALL tubes AFT. This would allow you to lay and wait for your prey, fire off a salvo, then immediately be able to leave as directly as possible. Having tubes foreward requires a sub to fire at their target, then evade by first moving CLOSER to the target while turning away. I know if it was my arse on the line, I would prefer to have the immediate exit rather then having to turn away as my ship is being hunted....

05-01-07, 08:39 AM	#12
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I have tried unsuccessfully to attack pursuing destroyers from astern and from the bow. Typically using a beneath the keel shot with zero success. The DD usually veers out of the torpedos path or the torpedo fails to detonate. In fact the only DD's I have claimed never new what hit them. But the stern tubes are usefull they just take a little more planning to set up a shot.