SH3 Apt Tune

[Kaleun Cook]

I don't want to offend anyone, just posting my opinion.

Brave etc. or not - these guys would help nazi germany to kill thousands of british, american and whatsoever nation's sailors for the "Endsieg". Of course young men were forced to serve in the military and maybe had little chance not to do it (although there are countless examples how people found their way around it) but still every sunken ship, every shot plane, every dead enemy soldier supported a system that created the industrial genocide.

Therefor I find any chorus of praise in this context very difficult if not indefensible.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Kaleun Cook

I don't want to offend anyone, just posting my opinion.

Brave etc. or not - these guys would help nazi germany to kill thousands of british, american and whatsoever nation's sailors for the "Endsieg". Of course young men were forced to serve in the military and maybe had little chance not to do it (although there are countless examples how people found their way around it) but still every sunken ship, every shot plane, every dead enemy soldier supported a system that created the industrial genocide.

Therefor I find any chorus of praise in this context very difficult if not indefensible.

Look we all know Nazi Germany was evil. Yadda yadda yadda. But we always love to forget that we were real wankers too. I mean between Dresden and Hiroshima we did our share of killing innocents. I'm not understating the Holocaust but, lets have some perspective.

In addition to that, what of the young men who did their duty for their nation, a nation which existed before Hitler? They fought and they died for their homeland and the only reason we will look down on them is because they lost. Unless its a game where we're playing as an SS guard at a death camp I don't think that we need to be playing the "they supported an evil regime" card.

Fact is that out own nations routinely support evil despotic, and even genocidal regimes. The righteous and the evil is an easy game to play but it has little basis in reality.

And lastly, what do the lyrics have to do with glory? I see in them a dark defeatist meaning. If anything it can be seen in the context of U-boats as a metaphor for the very futility that the members of the kriegsmarine fought for.

Okay. End of that.

For my vote for most apt song it would have to be "U-boat" by Kasabian. The song actually begins with the sounds of u-boat screws underwater. And the mood is good for the game too.

[Jimbuna]

For my vote for most apt song it would have to be "U-boat" by Kasabian.

Personally speaking, I don't particularly like their music But that individual track is really quite cool
My own personal favourite has got to be 'Ride of the Valkyrie'

[Kaleun Cook]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

Look we all know Nazi Germany was evil. Yadda yadda yadda.

Sry, but using "yadda, yadda, yadda" to wipe that fact away is just disgusting to me.

But we always love to forget that we were real wankers too. I mean between Dresden and Hiroshima we did our share of killing innocents.

That's the argument neonazi parties in germany use to put the holocaust on the same level with for example Dresden or Hiroshima. But that is impossible. Nothing compares to the dimension of the industrial genocide Germany began. Also, if you think of Dresden or maybe russian soldiers that are being accused of raping german women when they reached the country, keep in mind that that stuff was a reaction to the terror Germany had spread the years before. Of course that doesn't excuse these reactions - but it makes them understandable. In contrast Germany had no reason for its actions at all.

Unless its a game where we're playing as an SS guard at a death camp I don't think that we need to be playing the "they supported an evil regime" card.

Indeed - but this thread is about the "real German Submariners [who] were some of the bravest bastards in world war 2".

And lastly, what do the lyrics have to do with glory?

Nothing, sry, found the wrong word in some online dictionary (actually I am german, excuse any spelling mistakes, plz). Still, quoting "I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end... it doesn't even matter" somewhat implicates "awww, in the end they lost". One should be glad they did, if not you might be exercising under the command of some Helga Schulz the whole day now instead of playing computer games.

[P_Funk]

I'm not belittling the Holocaust. I think I already said that. My point, is that war is war. Whatever happened behind the scenes is irrelavent when we're talking about a branch of the military that had little to do with the crimes of the Nazis. We learned of the Holocaust AFTER it happened. Hitler might have been bad but the vast majority of the people fighting for Germany weren't particularly different from anyone else.

And I didn't use 'yadda yadda yadda' to wipe away the reality. I just mean to say that we are fully aware of it. There are about 3 or 4 holocaust documentaries on the History channel a week. I have seen my fair share of emaciated bodies being piled into holes.

I just really get tired of the constant reminder that we should be so grim about the Nazis. I get it, they were bad. They were really bad. We've learned that in 3 seperate grades in High School. But to constantly get that thrown back at us like we should be walking on egg shells everytime we don't unambiguously root for the home team in WW2 discussions is just tiring and unnessesary.

As for indulging in a little fantasy with this game, its a fetish. All fantasies of war are a fetish that somehow makes it so attractive. And again I'll reiterate that the U-bootswaffe was as far from the genocide as you could get, in the middle of the Atlantic.

So lets all just listen to some loud music and sink fake ships.

[Kaleun Cook]

So lets all just listen to some loud music and sink fake ships.

I agree.

[joea]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

I'm not belittling the Holocaust. I think I already said that. We learned of the Holocaust AFTER it happened. Hitler might have been bad but the vast majority of the people fighting for Germany weren't particularly different from anyone else.

Well the Holocaust was not the only evil thing the Nazis did, read up a bit on the occupation of Russia. It was not just SS responsible by the way.


Yes I do admire the u-boat crews for going out, but I always feel a sense fo bitterness at such talent wasted. Have to go but will think about this more.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

Hitler might have been bad but the vast majority of the people fighting for Germany weren't particularly different from anyone else.

And isn't that the whole point?

The vast majority of Germans in WW2 had as much choice about wether to fight or not as our guys (probably less)Yes Germany did some terrible things, but to blame the whole of Germany and it's millitary for them is completely wrong. As P Funk says, the U Boat crews were about as far removed from the Nazi ideals as you can get.
I'm glad that they didn't succeed, but I'm also able to see that facing certain death as well as being sent on suicide missions (Ramming ships on D - Day for Christ's sake!) took a certain amount of bravery - the like of which I'm never likely to show/need.

And I acknowledge that bravery.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by robbo180265

The vast majority of Germans in WW2 had as much choice about wether to fight or not as our guys (probably less).

The other thing to consider there is that Hitler really did seem like a hero before the war. Faced with economic collapse and a deep shame at just being German, its easy to see how people could be inspired by him. I've seen his speeches. He might have been one bad mothersucker but he was good at getting people on board. And given the way the rest of Europe treated post war Germany in the 20s, we can't begin to judge people's state of mind. After the fact, we know Hitler was the worst criminal in centuries.

Originally Posted by joea

Well the Holocaust was not the only evil thing the Nazis did, read up a bit on the occupation of Russia. It was not just SS responsible by the way.

And there were plenty of Allied incidents of utter evil. I'm not saying its all evened out. Its just that the absolutism of how we say "EVIL" is much exaggerated. And I think that Vietnam has proven that even the sweetest Christian Choir boys can do heinous things too. War makes people do sick things. The Nazis just outdid the rest of them, by alot.

[STEED]

I need not say anymore.

[Spytrx]

Originally Posted by Kaleun Cook

I don't want to offend anyone, just posting my opinion.

Brave etc. or not - these guys would help nazi germany to kill thousands of british, american and whatsoever nation's sailors for the "Endsieg". Of course young men were forced to serve in the military and maybe had little chance not to do it (although there are countless examples how people found their way around it) but still every sunken ship, every shot plane, every dead enemy soldier supported a system that created the industrial genocide.

Therefor I find any chorus of praise in this context very difficult if not indefensible.

So on that same note you must condemn the Russians for killing more of their own soldiers than the war did (besides from spreading suffering for many years after the war ended), the Americans for dropping two atomic bombs on civilians (the first one deliberately to see what effects it has), the British for their colonization policies (and subsequent slaughter of the Zulu's and many other nations, besides being the true inventors of the concentration camps) and deliberate bombing of civilian targets out of spite in the end, the Japanese for their cruelty to their PoW's -- shall I go on? Your bias view is very narrow minded (sorry, but there is a lack of tacktful words in my vocabulary) - go and learn about the war first before making such a statement (particularly what lead to the war in the first place). The German soldier never really had a choice in the matter. You might want to read up on the three o'clock call from the GeStaPo, indoctrination, Propaganda, and brain washing (particularly of youngsters in school). Of interest might also be to look into the life of a person under a tyrannic system (hell, America thinks they live in a democracy yet look what is happening there - and do all the Americans that voted for the government want to be associated with what is happening right now (which is nothing compared to the late 30's, but worth bearing in mind) and/or is that all down to blind patriotism (hmm, isn't that just another word for / description of how to see Germans in the third Reich)?

I find it very disturbing that people always assume that the little person on the street knew what was going on in the concentration camps mostly located in the East (not on German soil), took part in the decision making at the top level, had a say (or even a vote) on any matter that went on in the third Reich, and that every German was a Nazi! Quite the opposite was true.

If you can't seperate the honour that went on on the battlefield by the normal soldier (not the SS or other special units) and appreciate the feats that were achieved by a group of incredible brave men then you really shouldn't comment at all (sorry, but that is my opinion). Even the Allied military leaders had nicer things to say about their opponents... Never ever forget that history is written by the victor and that there is more to it than just a simple 'they were evil and that is what they did and so we went in and wiped the floor with their faces' - horrendous things went on on all sides and in all camps that are not talked about...

[P_Funk]

And so the opera continues.

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

And so the opera continues.

I reckon we'd do well to stay out of this one matey

How did it get so serious?

Linkin' Park have a new CD out on may 15th (I'm trying to get this thread back on track-honest)

[HM.Medico]

Another good hunting song, as in tail end of hunting (line up, firing etc.) is strangely enough, the HALO theme...or at least the drum bits of it. Download it and give it a shot (If you own HALO that is...)

[P_Funk]

I like listening to Live Jimi Hendrix too. Line up one of his catastrophic end-of-song distortion feedback loops with the sinking of a ship and you got yourself some mighty powerful visuals.

Its like a sorta Vietnam war movie kinda feeling, but with much less of that malaise of senseless brutal human defeatism.