OT Debate: If you were karl Donitz ....

[Bindolaf]

All interesting points (from everyone), but we're only looking at one side.

1. Concentrate on cutting off the British Supply lines by sending U-boats to only the Western Appraoches of Britain.

Sounds good, but you do realize, you send your subs close to the enemy's shores in a predictable manner. This would allow Britain to recall all her destroyers and just patrol the shores up and down in ASW sorties. Convoys wouldn't even need escorts for the crossing - the "escorts" would be busy near the arrival area depth charging away. Denser sub concentrations would also mean they'd be easier to spot. A u-boot blockade during WWI is one thing, totally different in WWII

2. Tankers were to be number 1 Priority targets. Britian produced no oil in 1939 - 45 and was totally reliant on Tankers bringing it in.

I am sure all merchants were hit when spotted. How would you actively go after tankers?

3. Demand Kriegsmarine sorties and feint attacks into the Atlantic. Thus pulling many British Destroyers and search aircraft away from ASW duty.

Ha! Good luck! The Kriegsmarine lurked in port for fear of being sunk. Fear not of the men obviously, but their illustrious leader. Even after the Deutschland was renamed, big ships hardly ever left the harbors. Not to mention the KM would not be a match to the British navy eventually - better ships, but outnumbered, hopelessly so.

4. Demand Luftwaffe concentrate on bombing British Ports and Docks rather than City bombing.

Yea, good one. Talk to Herrn Mueller about that :rotfl:

5. Demand Luftwaffe air sorties over convoy routes. Forgot the Condors attacking Convoys they were mostly useless at it.

Again, the former WWI ace would object. Still, the Luftwaffe could not even escort bombers over the channel, how far would their bombers get over the Atlantic? Not to mention that sending fully loaded bombers out to look for convoys is a waste of fuel. Now, if you mean send out spotters first, then alert the bombers... perhaps. Still, Battle of Britain! The Luftwaffe kept air superiority and ground support roles, forsaking any others. Ok, night bomb runs perhaps.

6. Send special raiding U-boats to attack coastal Oil refineries in Curacoa and then US Coast when the US entered the war. Shell those Oil tanks and blow see em burn.

I thought all the u-booten should stay around Britain. If you mean 2, 3, 5 boats then ok. Still, they would have not made a dent really. Best to use them all in their conventional roles.

7. Attack Destroyers and Escorts when possible. Dont just assume that they are the hound and the u-boats are the fox.

A bold move - and one that would have resulted in disaster. How many DDs would a u-boot sink? A convoy is moving in, with 3 escorts. Sink all of them? How many torpedoes would that leave for the convoy? Sink one? What good is that? The other two will depth charge you for hours anyway.

8. The most brutal of all would be to sink the Rescue ships in convoys when possible. I know it would be horrendous but to break morale of the merchant seaman it is a must. They would be terrified to come out of port. I would have been hung at Nurnberg for this.

Yes, you would have been :p Still, terrified or not, the convoys would continue. Not to mention - how easy would it have been to consistently target and sink the rescue vessels? When you have one or two torpedo runs before having to make your escape, why waste one on the rescue ship? Sure, there would be some morale hit, but the juicy transports would just get away.


In the end I think Doenitz did what he could with the resources he had. It was a war of industries in the end and while german technical superiority and labor (not to mention some slave labor) took them far, it was not enough - especially after the U.S. entered the war. Yes, the Russian front was all an ill advised move, yes Mussolini was more detrimental than helpful. Yes Hitler made mistakes and thank god he did

Good thread for some debate and thought!

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by Bindolaf

A bold move - and one that would have resulted in disaster. How many DDs would a u-boot sink? A convoy is moving in, with 3 escorts. Sink all of them? How many torpedoes would that leave for the convoy? Sink one? What good is that? The other two will depth charge you for hours anyway.

Well I would assume that with the concentration of U-boats there would be more than 1 U-boat engaing the convoy.

[_Seth_]

Hmmm...interesting, but difficult question, mates... Its hard for me to imagine how to do this, considering my present knowledge of the war in general.. It will be easy for me to state my hypotetical opinions about this, based on all the things i've learned trough the years, but putting myself into Dönitz' place... its to difficult for me..Of course, there is some things i would have changed due to what i know now, but i think Dönitz did whatever he could do, considering the limitations he had to operate under..
Good question, btw! Makes you think..

[STEED]

If Donitz had won, what rot. May I remind you using Donitz own words, the war came six years to early for the Kriegsmarine.

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by STEED

If Donitz had won, what rot. May I remind you using Donitz own words, the war came six years to early for the Kriegsmarine.

"Six years to early".....sounds like the words of a man covering up his own inadequacies

By 1945 Britain would have had better Ships and sensors to fight not just the U-Boat but the Z-Plan ships also.
HMS Vanguard would have sunk the Bismark and Tirpitz no problem. KGV class ships were merely a stop gap until the Lion Class was built. Even then the KGV Class had better armour protection than Bismark and the 14inch guns were more accurate. Combine them with better British Radar and you have a winner.


As for the TypeXX1 U-Boat....was apparently not as good as has been made out. Its technology was never proven in battle and may have been a waste of resources. Looked good though.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by sandbag69

"Six years to early".....sounds like the words of a man covering up his own inadequacies

Far from it, don't forget the Kriegsmarine always came third for materials and they gave it there best shot.

[sandbag69]

I doubt he was complaining during the "happy Times".

[Dowly]

The way I see the Battle of the Atlantic, it was lost before it even started. Kriegsmarine simply didnt have enough uboats to blockade Britain. I even dare to bet that even if all the uboats would have been XXI's in the start of the war, Britain would have still survived.

So, as a Doenitz, I would have b*tch slapped Hitler and told him to get real and wait a few years before starting the war.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Dowly

The way I see the Battle of the Atlantic, it was lost before it even started. Kriegsmarine simply didnt have enough uboats to blockade Britain. I even dare to bet that even if all the uboats would have been XXI's in the start of the war, Britain would have still survived.

So, as a Doenitz, I would have b*tch slapped Hitler and told him to get real and wait a few years before starting the war.

Spot on Dowly. The U-waffe was not in a fit state to set up worlf packs in 1939 nor was it able to do so until well into '42 and even then there were still not enough to handle all the operations they had to cover. It all came down to how many operational boats were available and for Germany to have won, they would have had to have the 300 boats in 1939 which was never going to happen unless they started their full scale building programme much ealier than they could.

Hitler couldn't wait long enough to get all his ducks in a row because of Germany's debts and the threat posed by Russian military build ups.

[UnterseeBoogeyMan]

the best way to win the Battle of the Atlantic would be more attention to encryption and misinformation. When Enigma was cracked, the Uboats were bringing a butterknife to a gunfight. The Allies knew where they were and where they were going to be. All they had to do was reroute the convoys and leave an ASW killer group in waiting. It's a miracle any Uboat crews survived the war. If the Allies don't crack the codes, at least send out false information where Milk Cows would be, false headings of phony U-Boats, that sort of thing. The Germans were strong in all phases of war, but they didn't give enough credence to intell, where the Allies did. Intell was why the US won Midway and why the Allies won the Atlantic.

Given the sparse resources Donitz had t work with, he may not have won the Atlantic, but the war surely could have drug out longer.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by UnterseeBoogeyMan

the best way to win the Battle of the Atlantic would be more attention to encryption and misinformation. When Enigma was cracked, the Uboats were bringing a butterknife to a gunfight. The Allies knew where they were and where they were going to be.

U-Boat codes were much harder to break and the operators were not sloppy like the army and air force. Out of the three military wings there's was the hardest to crack and were updated more.

[NoLine]

Originally Posted by STEED

U-Boat codes were much harder to break and the operators were not sloppy like the army and air force. Out of the three military wings there's was the hardest to crack and were updated more.

dont think it would have mattered much if the german codes werent broken the brits used radio direction finding to pinpoint the subs on the map, without knowing what they where talking about

The Poles broke the enigma code from the wehrmacht as soon as 1939 the extra rotor (4 iso 3) from the kriegsmarine was harder to crack

Just using the radio defeated the uboats, donnitz talks about this in his book how they didnt think radio direction finding could be that accurate

cheers
NoLine