IMPOSSABLE to escape DD's

joea · 04-17-07, 03:01 AM

Quick comment...100M is not deep at all you take a risk with every attack in shallow water. My understanding is that is how most u-boats escaped early on. Second, not all DDs early in the war were as hopeless as we think (want?) u-boats, even with ace skippers (Prien) were sunk early in the war.

Ducimus · 04-17-07, 03:14 AM

You dont get under early war sonar until around 200 meters as i recall. Executing a submerged attack in 100 meters of water is a bit risky to say the least. In shallow waters, even the dumbest of AI can be a royal pain.

Reece · 04-17-07, 03:39 AM

Wonder if they changed that for SH4, since the best US subs could only go to around 100m (150feet), correct me if I'm wrong!

Hopefully someone can list all the associated files to do with sensons, so I can check, though they should be allright, I suppose Ducimus I should have picked on a target at the end of the convoy, or not at all in shallow (less that 100m) water!

Maraz · 04-17-07, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reece

Wonder if they changed that for SH4, since the best US subs could only go to around 100m (150feet), correct me if I'm wrong!

OK!

150 feet is around 50 metres.

Maraz

Spytrx · 04-17-07, 05:17 AM

I have exactly the same problem there as you Reece - and not only with DD's. I upgraded to GWX (with the latest patch) over the weekend just to see what all the hype was all about and slowly but surely come to regret it.

Playing in '42 I have played a few missions so far, all in the BE, BD, AL, and AE sectors of the board. I use a clean game, no other mods than the ones out of the box and no tweaks, btw. Right after leaving St Nazaire I have to duck and dive out of the way of all sorts of Allied planes and bombers that head right for me. Crash diving and staying under till there is hardly any air left doesn't work, because the planes are still there when coming back up (and the best bit is, the planes don't seem to be concerned about fuel at all - I was attacked by a swarm of fighters and hunters in BD, 16oo clicks from land and they still circled overhead for over an hour till I resurfaced) even though I had moved away from my original position by a couple nm.

When attacking a convoy of any size I aim to either hit it from behind (sending contact for other boots to follow and then taking aim at the rear defender and at least one merchant) or from the centre (coming from the front, full stop & dropping depth, let convoy pass over and then start attack) - yet the moment the periscope comes up that is it - unless it is dark and stormy seas I have a DD on my within a few minutes and they drop DC's with an accuracy unheard of. One time I was lucky enough to hide on the floor right next to a T3 that I sank just before and they still found me - how the heck is that possible?

Since installing GWX I haven't brought a single U-boot home - I have most boxes in realism ticked (just as I had before) and I am not even over ambigious in the tasks I take on, but compared to before the enemy not only has total air supremacy but also 100% sea control (both a little bit ahead of historical data).

P_Funk · 04-17-07, 05:28 AM

Well its possible that by going from vanilla SH3 to GWX you might have encountered limitations in the conventional wisdom which you've used in playing the game up until now. I know that I've had to adapt to GWX.

For one, just dropping below the convoy and waiting for them to pass overhead won't work. Early war asdics could reach down as far as 200 meters if I recall correctly. Later war ones were much better. This means that simply submerging ahead of a convoy won't work later on. Also, Radar is becoming a major threat in the time that you're playing. This means that you can be detected at closer range, including your peri.

You should also review your evasion techniques. For one we used to think that ahead slow was enough. But now we know that you need to have your rpms at or below 100 in addition to running silent. Also you need to point your tail at the nearest DD and to only turn in 10 to 30 degree angles when detected and to burst ahead at Flank when he drops charges and to drop back to 1 or 2 knots once you've built up speed. And you need to go DEEP. The deeper the better. If you can sit on the ocean floor near a sunken ship then you're probably in shallow waters and thats always dangerous.

You should read through the GWX manual carefully. There are some excellent evasion techniques and advice at the very back of it in Appendix C.

ref · 04-17-07, 06:39 AM

I strongly recomend reading this thread (all of it

)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377

@Reece, where you in 0 knts. of wind speed?, if the sea is too calm avoid approaching a convoy at more than 1 knot of speed, and time your entry precisely or you'll be detected, I'm playing my 19th patrol (late 42) in my career and I've been able to avoid detection in most cases by planning a carefull approach and even more carefully the retreat

, also don't get greedy, one attack at a time,choose the best target shoot your torpedoes, then dive to at least 70 mts, all at 2 knots max., unless detected (detected, not pinged), and move away to a safe distance and then plan another attack.

Ref

cyclop_si · 04-17-07, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ref

... unless detected (detected, not pinged),...
Ref

How do you know when you are detected?
Is that when SO says "Enemy os pinging us"?

Reece · 04-17-07, 07:24 AM

Hi Ref, yes the sea was calm & was early morning, snuck in to around 1.5k ahead of convoy for a 90 degree shot, silent running, when scout DD is around 1k off I stop the boat & lower periscope even though I have only the tip showing I'm very cautious.

I watch the sonar & once the scout is passed I raise the scope just out to get bearings on my target that I have previously chosen & calculated data on, if I need to I may slowly creep closer till I'm in close enough, then I continue lowering & raising scope till it's time to fire, in this case I was about 1.5k, speed set to 8.5 knots & adjusted TDC to fire at bearing 20degrees, once launched I lowered periscope, set depth to 80meters & course to an almost U-Turn!

by the time I was heading out on the new course (at this stage still not detected) "Kaboom" both torpedo's hit!

Quote:

and move away to a safe distance

I get about 200meters out and about 40meters down when they all close in for the kill!!

Kinda spoils things a bit!!

04-17-07, 03:39 AM	#3
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 34,931 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	Wonder if they changed that for SH4, since the best US subs could only go to around 100m (150feet), correct me if I'm wrong! Hopefully someone can list all the associated files to do with sensons, so I can check, though they should be allright, I suppose Ducimus I should have picked on a target at the end of the convoy, or not at all in shallow (less that 100m) water! __________________ *Sub captains go down with their ship!*

04-17-07, 05:28 AM	#6
P_Funk Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 2,537 Downloads: 129 Uploads: 0	Well its possible that by going from vanilla SH3 to GWX you might have encountered limitations in the conventional wisdom which you've used in playing the game up until now. I know that I've had to adapt to GWX. For one, just dropping below the convoy and waiting for them to pass overhead won't work. Early war asdics could reach down as far as 200 meters if I recall correctly. Later war ones were much better. This means that simply submerging ahead of a convoy won't work later on. Also, Radar is becoming a major threat in the time that you're playing. This means that you can be detected at closer range, including your peri. You should also review your evasion techniques. For one we used to think that ahead slow was enough. But now we know that you need to have your rpms at or below 100 in addition to running silent. Also you need to point your tail at the nearest DD and to only turn in 10 to 30 degree angles when detected and to burst ahead at Flank when he drops charges and to drop back to 1 or 2 knots once you've built up speed. And you need to go DEEP. The deeper the better. If you can sit on the ocean floor near a sunken ship then you're probably in shallow waters and thats always dangerous. You should read through the GWX manual carefully. There are some excellent evasion techniques and advice at the very back of it in Appendix C. __________________

04-17-07, 06:39 AM	#7
ref Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mar del Plata, Argentina Posts: 871 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I strongly recomend reading this thread (all of it ) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377 @Reece, where you in 0 knts. of wind speed?, if the sea is too calm avoid approaching a convoy at more than 1 knot of speed, and time your entry precisely or you'll be detected, I'm playing my 19th patrol (late 42) in my career and I've been able to avoid detection in most cases by planning a carefull approach and even more carefully the retreat , also don't get greedy, one attack at a time,choose the best target shoot your torpedoes, then dive to at least 70 mts, all at 2 knots max., unless detected (detected, not pinged), and move away to a safe distance and then plan another attack. Ref __________________

04-17-07, 03:01 AM	#1
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Quick comment...100M is not deep at all you take a risk with every attack in shallow water. My understanding is that is how most u-boats escaped early on. Second, not all DDs early in the war were as hopeless as we think (want?) u-boats, even with ace skippers (Prien) were sunk early in the war.

04-17-07, 03:14 AM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	You dont get under early war sonar until around 200 meters as i recall. Executing a submerged attack in 100 meters of water is a bit risky to say the least. In shallow waters, even the dumbest of AI can be a royal pain.

04-17-07, 05:17 AM	#5
Spytrx Medic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 167 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I have exactly the same problem there as you Reece - and not only with DD's. I upgraded to GWX (with the latest patch) over the weekend just to see what all the hype was all about and slowly but surely come to regret it. Playing in '42 I have played a few missions so far, all in the BE, BD, AL, and AE sectors of the board. I use a clean game, no other mods than the ones out of the box and no tweaks, btw. Right after leaving St Nazaire I have to duck and dive out of the way of all sorts of Allied planes and bombers that head right for me. Crash diving and staying under till there is hardly any air left doesn't work, because the planes are still there when coming back up (and the best bit is, the planes don't seem to be concerned about fuel at all - I was attacked by a swarm of fighters and hunters in BD, 16oo clicks from land and they still circled overhead for over an hour till I resurfaced) even though I had moved away from my original position by a couple nm. When attacking a convoy of any size I aim to either hit it from behind (sending contact for other boots to follow and then taking aim at the rear defender and at least one merchant) or from the centre (coming from the front, full stop & dropping depth, let convoy pass over and then start attack) - yet the moment the periscope comes up that is it - unless it is dark and stormy seas I have a DD on my within a few minutes and they drop DC's with an accuracy unheard of. One time I was lucky enough to hide on the floor right next to a T3 that I sank just before and they still found me - how the heck is that possible? Since installing GWX I haven't brought a single U-boot home - I have most boxes in realism ticked (just as I had before) and I am not even over ambigious in the tasks I take on, but compared to before the enemy not only has total air supremacy but also 100% sea control (both a little bit ahead of historical data).