Anyone have the text to the poem in the opening movie?

[ScottD]

The only thing I don't care about the intro is that its being read by an Englishmen...uh guys this game is about American Sub Force! Its nearly as bad as Hollywood's version of U-571, which was based on an RN incident!

[Payoff]

Too artsy fartsy for me. Why not just start with an old radio broadcast of the attack on Pearl, fading into some music of the day? An intro is meant to introduce the subject matter with a little what, when, where, not to leave one scratching his head thinking " what the hell was that ".

[Dantenoc]

Not the worst of intros, and in some places it's nice, but overall, I think some frustrated artist tried to be a bit too clever with this one.

Edit: After watching the intro some more, I am more convinced that the poem is completely out of place. The "gratest generation" valued content over form. They were a bunch of young kids who grew in hard times and were a "no-nonsese, quit your belly aching, stand up and get the job done" bunch of people... hardly a match for such an elaborately written poem that is actually talking about a completely different subject matter.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Snowman999

We were attacked, brutally, without warning, during diplomatic negotiations.

I hate the assersion. Such bollocks in its own right. The US is the big fan of pre-emptive war these days anyway. War is a brutal nasty affair, and to say the US is some big victim in a brutal uncalled for attack is like saying that Europe was taken by surprise when Hitler invaded Poland. Anti-war sentiment led to stupidity and isolationism. The US wanted economic hegemony but not the military consequences of being affluent and powerful in the hemisphere.

The Japanese went for the Jugular by attempting to cripple the US surface fleet. Thats called good strategy. Surprise attack. You can denounce Pearl Harbour all you like but at least it was a military target. Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.

A little perspective maybe.

As for the poem, its a lamentation of death but also a thoughtful reminder that there is a beyond and that those that sacrifice themselves will go on to heaven and that death is not the end because we remember those that died.

Very similar to John Donne's 'Death be not proud'.

I found it very rousing and melancholie. No "rah rah war is great", or "boo boo war sucks period". Its impartial in its appraisal of death and thememory of those that die.

Showing he sub sink is appropriate also I think. Most games make you a hero that can't die. This isn't about being a hero. This is about being a sailor. Plus I love English poets of that era. Such beautiful writing by itself.

[Reaves]

Originally Posted by ScottD

The only thing I don't care about the intro is that its being read by an Englishmen...

Personally I can't stand the whiny American accent... (joking)


Seriously though, I'm a fan of the intro. Whenever I get a new game I always look forward to the intro and this is one of the better ones.

All time favorite would be mechwarrior 2.

[joea]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

The Japanese went for the Jugular by attempting to cripple the US surface fleet. Thats called good strategy. Surprise attack. You can denounce Pearl Harbour all you like but at least it was a military target. Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.

A surprise attack by the same nation that unleashed a war that slaughtered millions of Chinese and other Asians, funny how that never enters the calculations either with Yanks or Canucks or Euros eh? If you want to be cynical, a drive by on a potential rival so the local gangster could oppress and exploit the locals.

[ScottD]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.

Better then the millions of people that would have died if the Allies would have had to invade the Japanese Main Land...on both sides..

As for being oppressed by a dictator, the Emperor was a god in their eyes...they never heard him speak in public till they surrendered..

[melendir]

I'm not complaining about the intro. It's great and original, but it still is kinda creepy anyway. Nothing can change that and I mean it don't have to change.
Creepy can be good

As you can see from my post at first page... it has big smiley after that twilight zone part

[Snowman999]

With respect, I think you missed the point of my post, and -- again, with respect -- I know I'm missing yours.

S'OK. I understand why some folks like the opening. I do too if it's taken alone, apart from the topic. I just think it's engaging in "presentism" about events of 60+ years ago. I believe you said you were an English major; I was History, but I've got one novel published, so we both understand POV. POV is a problem with the game overall (witness the posts about feeling as if one is "being the boat" vice "being the CO".) I think the opening muddies the issue of whether we're 2007 folk playing a game set in 1941, or a CO IN 1941, with that time's beliefs and worldview.

Just my opinion, but I think the video actually underscores the sacrifices made by the "Great Generation" rather than minimizing them. But it is, after all, just a game video. To put it another way, I was pleasantly suprised to see the video take an even remotely serious approach, instead of a "run-and-gun" deal with loud guitars. If I have a complaint it's the "Wolves of the Pacific" subtitle as I don't think that's an accurate description. But that's a quibble.

I too have a quibble with the sub-title (I once engaged in a vicious little flame war on Usenet over games' ahistoric use of "wolfpack" for the coordinated groups we tried late-war), but it's a quibble.

I do think it somewhat demonstrates the Euro-centric view of the game necessary due to its dev team's origins. Europeans simply see WWII differently than Americans, now, and certainly then. We were isolationists hammered into a war we didn't start. I must confess that I saw the opening video through that lens, especially when I compared it to the treatment given the U-boats in SH3. Professionals doing their job versus, as I read Milton, saps sacrificed in an unworthy endeavor, with salvation as compensation. Thanks, but I prefer a long life. Milton's poem is anti-war. Europeans are generally anti-war. I'm generally anti-war. But WWII needed to be fought.

Would it have been better if they'd had someone playing "Sakura" on a koto instead?

No. I'd prefer an historical backdrop, with some newsreel, etc. The opening to the Matrix game "War in the Pacific" does an excellent job of setting the mood at a fraction of the budget. For just one example.

No hard feelings, here, I'm not looking for agreement so much as understanding where you're coming from. What, exactly, is "Milton's" sort of history? How is his poem "On Time" any less appropriate than "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori?"

It strikes me as defeatist. It strikes me as arguing that all sides in any war are morally equal. Just my reading of it. Pretty radical if that's what he meant, given that he was living through late-Reformation wars of religious bigotry, but artists are usually radicals for their time. And, as I said before, the poem argues that time smooths over events that seem so important at the time, but in th elong view really aren't. Again, as related to WWII, I don't buy that.

I DO accept that, as an intro, it's generated more heat than any I can remember. So if that was one of the devs' goals it has succeeded. I'd just prefer one of more nuts&bolts to reflect where the men of the time had their heads, and less presentism from this era of muddled war policy.

[Snowman999]

[quote]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

I hate the assersion. Such bollocks in its own right. The US is the big fan of pre-emptive war these days anyway.

It's a fact, not an assertion. Bringing in Bush's war-of-choice has no bearing on WWII.

We embargoed scrap iron, yes. We did that after Japan had been, shall we say, naughty, since the mid-30s in China--little place called Nanking for an example. And they were making loud noises toward the rest of east Asia. We were isolationist, yes, after being burned soundly by our Euro friends in 1917-1919. Stupidly isolationist, but that we were.

War is a brutal nasty affair, and to say the US is some big victim in a brutal uncalled for attack is like saying that Europe was taken by surprise when Hitler invaded Poland.

The two are not congruent at all. Europe created Hitler with the Treaty of Versailles and watched him spread for years. We had no indication Japan was going to attack before a declaration of war. None. Nations simply didn't behave that way.
It wasn't the attack that enraged America so much as the surprise. A matter of a few hours, but a critical few hours. Japan got a far worse licking than they would have if they'd followed the rules. (Bataan didn't help their case either.)

Anti-war sentiment led to stupidity and isolationism. The US wanted economic hegemony but not the military consequences of being affluent and powerful in the hemisphere.

Japan and the USA are in different hemispheres.

Our interests in Asia, less the PI, were minimal. You need to talk to the UK and the Dutch.

The Japanese went for the Jugular by attempting to cripple the US surface fleet. Thats called good strategy. Surprise attack.

Speaking from 2007 where declaring war is considered quaint. In 1941 it wasn't. Japan had intended to declare war first, but the translation in DC as too slow and the envoys missed the window. On that basis your argument falls apart--they didn't intend a sneak attack in a legal sense, although the hour or so planned for would have amounted to the same thing on the ground in Hawaii. As for good strategy it fails there too, a point that's been endless ly hashed out. Subs were leaving on war patrols on December 8, and it was the subs that ultimately beat Japan, not battleships.

You can denounce Pearl Harbour all you like but at least it was a military target. Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.

The Emperor was a dictator? The Japanese people of the time certainly didn't feel oppressed by him. Tojo was long gone.

Showing he sub sink is appropriate also I think. Most games make you a hero that can't die.

Then the intro would have been far more appropriate for SH3.

[AVGWarhawk]

Keep the flames on low men. A discussion of an intro does not need to turn ugly. Like any other poem, take it for what you believe the author was attempting to convey.

[USS_shipmaster]

Great Intro. The idea of Milton poems is clear even :-) for me (english is my 3rd language)... There are thoughts and ideas in this poem... "The biggest pacifist is the soldier who served during the war"as one guy said.
Are you tired of brave military commercials? I am.

VK

[XLjedi]

The poem's good, I like it.


The Intro?

The decision to use the poem voice over just doesn't fit; somewhat ironic that it's in fact outta sync with... Time.

Accelerated time and cliche fast cloud scenes

The kiss (let's just not talk about that part...)

[Cakewalk]

*kisses sub*

Hm... salty.:hmm:

[NZ_Wanderer]

Well personally, I hated the intro...
The voice over IMHO does not match what I would expect from a WWII submarine simulation, and that movie, well, what can I say, total rubbish, those fast scenes looked awful..

As one poster mentioned above, What would have been a lot better would have been someone talking about the Pearl Harbour attack with cut-scenes from it...


I'm just hoping someone will come up with something like that or I will be disabling that intro very quickly..

Just my 2c worth..