Please don't make the AI too difficult

AntEater · 04-09-07, 07:24 AM

Recent mods have made the AI actually too difficult to be historic.
I'm using RFB and Flavored to taste over another (FTT overwriting RFB, except for campaign) and the japanese are just too good in spotting me.
In 1942 I was accurately detected and depth charged at 350 feet while on silent running and under a thermal layer.
Merchants spot me at night at ranges around 5000 yards, making night attacks on single merchants impossible.
Convoy night attacks in 1944 are also impossible because all escorts seem to have radar and run me down before I can get a visual on the merchants.
This is not the Battle of the Atlantic, so while the original AI was abmysal, the mods seem to have overdone it a bit.
I suppose the right way of doing this is rather editing skill levels in the campaign layer, than turning up AI sensors to paranormal levels...

Otherwise, keep up the good work!

Jams79 · 04-09-07, 11:39 AM

Most of those issues are probably (I'm just guesssing) added by FTT. Ducimus designed it to be flavoured to his taste but the good news is he descibes his changes in the readmes so you can disable the mod and either remove the files you disagree with from the mod directory or tone down changes and then re-enable it.

CCIP · 04-09-07, 11:48 AM

Actually I don't believe the visual efficiency has anything to do with the mods. It's in the default game and yes, it is a problem. I'm hoping for it to be fixed up eventually - NYGM managed to do that quite successfuly with SHIII.

DiveMonkey · 04-09-07, 12:18 PM

I am a bit worried about this as well,

it's true the Japanese are sometimes to easy, sometimes down right stupid. But here's my problem.

Come across a convoy, most any convoy and you can be facing upward of 6 to 8 DD's!...In the Atlantic I was facing 3 or 4 sometimes 5 depending on where I was hunting.

What they lack in brains they make up for in numbers

The other problem I have is AI ability to go from a cold start...dead in the water!...to 30 knts in the blink of an eye!
JUST AS I FIRE MY TORPEDO!

Ducimus · 04-09-07, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jams79

Most of those issues are probably (I'm just guesssing) added by FTT. Ducimus designed it to be flavoured to his taste but the good news is he descibes his changes in the readmes so you can disable the mod and either remove the files you disagree with from the mod directory or tone down changes and then re-enable it.

I did design my mod to have harder AI, and im not even done with it yet

No, im not paying attention to historical accuracy on the level of difficulty of the AI, im just tweaking the game so it presents more of a challenge. Being able to evade unscathed all the time, to me makes the game boring and dull. If your familiar with the details on how to evade the AI, its really not hard at all. (see this thread if your not: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377 )

But overall, as the mods name implies, its a game "flavored to taste", and i try and keep up on my documention of the changes so you can change things more to your own liking.

edit: Evasion tips:

- Night surface attack. Be mindful of your silloute and speed. The more speed you have, the easier you are to spot. Ideally, give the AI only your bow and dont cruise faster then 8 kts. Plan your approach carefully, and do an end-round attack when out of their line of sight. (admittidy, i could probably tone down the AI's night vision a tad)

- In my last version i removed the hydrophone's thermal layer, and toned down the active sonars themal layer. So its not such a klingon cloaking device anymore. Active sonar you r shielded some, but hydrophones your not. State of the sea, is important to you. In calm seas its not just enough to go to 1/3rd and silent runing. Bring the boat down to 1kt and creep. (if its still too hard, rengage the klingon cloaking device in the sim.cfg

)

edit:

I just decided, that i guess next revision of my mod (to be posted in a day or two), ill tone down the AI's night vision, and hydrophone ablities a touch. Hopefully that will make everyone happy.

Egan · 04-09-07, 01:50 PM

Whilst we are on the subject of vision, does anyone know why the 'Visual uses crew efficiency' toggle in the sensors.cfg is set to false? Does this not meen that it doesn't matter what skill rating they are they will always see you?

I've changed mine to 'true' just for giggles and I do seem to be able to get closer into the convoy I'm stalking but I'm not sure whether changing that setting has any effect on whats going on.

CCIP · 04-09-07, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egan

Whilst we are on the subject of vision, does anyone know why the 'Visual uses crew efficiency' toggle in the sensors.cfg is set to false? Does this not meen that it doesn't matter what skill rating they are they will always see you?

I've changed mine to 'true' just for giggles and I do seem to be able to get closer into the convoy I'm stalking but I'm not sure whether changing that setting has any effect on whats going on.

Sensors.cfg controls your crew's sensors, not the enemy's! The enemy is all in sim.cfg.

Ducimus · 04-09-07, 02:03 PM

I seriously need to work on that file too. Watch crew's ablitiy to spot planes, while im sure is accurate, feels a bit lacking when you combine the whole picture of all the variables at play. To be honest, that is a file i totaly forgot about, and only saw it used in context with a 16KM visual distance mod.

CCIP · 04-09-07, 02:12 PM

Definitely take a look at the crew. I'm (mostly) using your sensor model at the moment, and it's my suspicion that in certain situation, especially when you jack up the TC, the enemy spotting ability can exceed your crew's, and then it gets ugly.

Ducimus · 04-09-07, 02:22 PM

I notice it primarly on planes. If you run with map updates on, and watch an incoming plane, you'll find yourself about halfway into the planes visual distance before the plane becomes visible to you. Its fairly consistant. In metric terms, at 1300ish TC, the plane isnt spotted tell around 4700 to 4800 meters.

with ships, ya i have ths same susption. Ive noticed when doing an endround attack on a clear/calm day, if im broadside to him, at 20 kts, it feels like hes detecting me outside his visual radius sometimes. Because he starts to zig zag, and id swear that i wasnt inside the visual arc yet.

CCIP · 04-09-07, 02:26 PM

I think Visual Range Factor is where you go in that case. Perhaps the sensors .sim file is worth reviewing as well.

Beery · 04-09-07, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntEater

Recent mods have made the AI actually too difficult to be historic.
I'm using RFB and Flavored to taste over another (FTT overwriting RFB, except for campaign) and the japanese are just too good in spotting me.

It's not RFB. The only changes I've made to the AI are ones that make them less effective. I'm sure that the standard game has far too effective AI even though some players have said it's too easy. Most casual players tend to want to be given a hard time on patrol #1 and if they don't get that they complain about stupid AI, but in real life it was really hard for the Japanese to sink a sub unless they got very lucky.

RFB is focused on getting realistic results for careers. If that means most players are going to find that boring, so be it. RFB will never exaggerate the historical experience just for the sake of giving players lots of explosions and tense escapes. There will be other mods for that sort of fantasy nonsense.

By the way, if you install any mod over RFB you're not using RFB anymore. It's only RFB if it's ONLY RFB.

Ducimus · 04-09-07, 05:54 PM

Quote:

I'm sure that the standard game has far too effective AI even though some players have said it's too easy

Well, the standard AI makes a pretty screensaver, ill give it that much.

CCIP · 04-09-07, 05:58 PM

The default AI detection DOES need work Beery, not to make it harder but to make it a little more... alive, shall we say.

You're right, it IS very effective, but only in certain circumstances. For example there's the fact that the AI is not even set on 'competent' early in the war, when in fact Japanese ASW didn't exactly improve through the course of the war. This severely affects the early war escorts (which are anemic) and skews results for late war escorts (which may be disproportionately deadly). There needs to be a middle ground, one that doesn't make things too hard but does make the enemy at least, well, get a little angry when they find you. Not to say neccesarily effective.

Captain_Jack · 04-09-07, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntEater

Recent mods have made the AI actually too difficult to be historic.
I'm using RFB and Flavored to taste over another (FTT overwriting RFB, except for campaign) and the japanese are just too good in spotting me.
In 1942 I was accurately detected and depth charged at 350 feet while on silent running and under a thermal layer.
Merchants spot me at night at ranges around 5000 yards, making night attacks on single merchants impossible.
Convoy night attacks in 1944 are also impossible because all escorts seem to have radar and run me down before I can get a visual on the merchants.
This is not the Battle of the Atlantic, so while the original AI was abmysal, the mods seem to have overdone it a bit.
I suppose the right way of doing this is rather editing skill levels in the campaign layer, than turning up AI sensors to paranormal levels...

Otherwise, keep up the good work!

Many of us share your same concerns in fact I have made similar posts. You're right, this is not the Battle of the Atlantic. Some have tweaked the AI to make better use of "gameplay". But if you are looking for a more realistic experience the RFB Folks are putting together quite a fine masterpiece. Best not to mix the two Mods though I'm guessing.

04-09-07, 11:48 AM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Actually I don't believe the visual efficiency has anything to do with the mods. It's in the default game and yes, it is a problem. I'm hoping for it to be fixed up eventually - NYGM managed to do that quite successfuly with SHIII. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-09-07, 02:12 PM	#9
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Definitely take a look at the crew. I'm (mostly) using your sensor model at the moment, and it's my suspicion that in certain situation, especially when you jack up the TC, the enemy spotting ability can exceed your crew's, and then it gets ugly. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-09-07, 02:26 PM	#11
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I think Visual Range Factor is where you go in that case. Perhaps the sensors .sim file is worth reviewing as well. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-09-07, 05:58 PM	#14
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	The default AI detection DOES need work Beery, not to make it harder but to make it a little more... alive, shall we say. You're right, it IS very effective, but only in certain circumstances. For example there's the fact that the AI is not even set on 'competent' early in the war, when in fact Japanese ASW didn't exactly improve through the course of the war. This severely affects the early war escorts (which are anemic) and skews results for late war escorts (which may be disproportionately deadly). There needs to be a middle ground, one that doesn't make things too hard but does make the enemy at least, well, get a little angry when they find you. Not to say neccesarily effective. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-09-07, 07:24 AM	#1
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Please don't make the AI too difficult Recent mods have made the AI actually too difficult to be historic. I'm using RFB and Flavored to taste over another (FTT overwriting RFB, except for campaign) and the japanese are just too good in spotting me. In 1942 I was accurately detected and depth charged at 350 feet while on silent running and under a thermal layer. Merchants spot me at night at ranges around 5000 yards, making night attacks on single merchants impossible. Convoy night attacks in 1944 are also impossible because all escorts seem to have radar and run me down before I can get a visual on the merchants. This is not the Battle of the Atlantic, so while the original AI was abmysal, the mods seem to have overdone it a bit. I suppose the right way of doing this is rather editing skill levels in the campaign layer, than turning up AI sensors to paranormal levels... Otherwise, keep up the good work! __________________

04-09-07, 11:39 AM	#2
Jams79 Sailor man Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Guildford UK Posts: 45 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	Most of those issues are probably (I'm just guesssing) added by FTT. Ducimus designed it to be flavoured to his taste but the good news is he descibes his changes in the readmes so you can disable the mod and either remove the files you disagree with from the mod directory or tone down changes and then re-enable it.

04-09-07, 12:18 PM	#4
DiveMonkey Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 111 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I am a bit worried about this as well, it's true the Japanese are sometimes to easy, sometimes down right stupid. But here's my problem. Come across a convoy, most any convoy and you can be facing upward of 6 to 8 DD's!...In the Atlantic I was facing 3 or 4 sometimes 5 depending on where I was hunting. What they lack in brains they make up for in numbers The other problem I have is AI ability to go from a cold start...dead in the water!...to 30 knts in the blink of an eye! JUST AS I FIRE MY TORPEDO!

04-09-07, 01:50 PM	#6
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Whilst we are on the subject of vision, does anyone know why the 'Visual uses crew efficiency' toggle in the sensors.cfg is set to false? Does this not meen that it doesn't matter what skill rating they are they will always see you? I've changed mine to 'true' just for giggles and I do seem to be able to get closer into the convoy I'm stalking but I'm not sure whether changing that setting has any effect on whats going on.

04-09-07, 02:03 PM	#8
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I seriously need to work on that file too. Watch crew's ablitiy to spot planes, while im sure is accurate, feels a bit lacking when you combine the whole picture of all the variables at play. To be honest, that is a file i totaly forgot about, and only saw it used in context with a 16KM visual distance mod.

04-09-07, 02:22 PM	#10
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I notice it primarly on planes. If you run with map updates on, and watch an incoming plane, you'll find yourself about halfway into the planes visual distance before the plane becomes visible to you. Its fairly consistant. In metric terms, at 1300ish TC, the plane isnt spotted tell around 4700 to 4800 meters. with ships, ya i have ths same susption. Ive noticed when doing an endround attack on a clear/calm day, if im broadside to him, at 20 kts, it feels like hes detecting me outside his visual radius sometimes. Because he starts to zig zag, and id swear that i wasnt inside the visual arc yet.