This is probably why SH4 medals are not historical correct ! - Page 3

Chuck B. · 04-06-07, 07:23 PM

Quote:

The test, at least as far back as "Top Gun" has been if the work shows the US military in a truthful, positive light.

I can see Top Gun being described as "positive" when it comes to the image of the US military that it emits, but I had to smile when I read "thruthful"

tommyk · 04-06-07, 07:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Snowman999

I can't see what in SH4 DoD could have kittens over, except perhaps that mournful opening sequence.

jepp, and I guess they would be happy to see it replaced with an opening like the one done by CaptainCox...

C-4 · 04-06-07, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

I'm not a lawyer, but does this bar electronic versions of the medals awarded to virtual people who really doesn't exist in reality? I mean, just cause my character in a game has a medal doesn't mean I do, even if I had an imaginative mind.

Also, electronic medals in a game isn't exactly a "colorable imitation", or photograph, or print or impression, one could argue. I think there's a loophole here.

Mylander · 04-06-07, 08:28 PM

Ubi doesn't want to/won't do it because of past bad experience with IL-2 etc... Can't say I blame them.

Let an anonymous modder do it - no one is going to prosecute. JAG has many far more important things to worry about. SH IV doesn't put the US military in any kind of bad light. The military would only come out looking stupid and petty if they made a stink. They don't give a rat's @$$ about this.

Mylander

akdavis · 04-06-07, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

I'm not a lawyer, but does this bar electronic versions of the medals awarded to virtual people who really doesn't exist in reality? I mean, just cause my character in a game has a medal doesn't mean I do, even if I had an imaginative mind.

Also, electronic medals in a game isn't exactly a "colorable imitation", or photograph, or print or impression, one could argue. I think there's a loophole here.

Would you think that this:

Quote:

Configurations and designs of aircraft and spacecraft may also be registered trademarks or are trademarks of Lockheed Martin Corporation, including without limitation, the configuration of certain fighter aircraft such as the configuration of the F-16 FIGHTING FALCON, JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER, F/A-22, and P-38 LIGHTNING aircraft.

would apply to a 3D model in a computer game?

GSpector · 04-06-07, 09:23 PM

Actually NovaLogic tried to copyright the use of the F-22 in their Sim so that they could take other developers to Court for using the F-22 in other Sims.

Lockheed had to step in and stated that due to their work belonging to the U.S. Citizens (through use of the U.S. Military), no company had the right to exclusive use of any Military Hardware so any U.S. Developer that wanted to use any hardware could do so.

Now, using the likeness of any of the U.S. Branches is a different matter. And I do believe that's why there is no reference to the U.S. Navy anywhere in SH4.

As for buying copies of the U.S. Medals, why, you can legally buy any and all real U.S. Medals in many Military Surplus stores or here : http://www.usmedals.com with the exception of the CMOH. So YES, the President can make laws (with the support of Congress). As it stand, even a CMOH that's stamped "COPY" on the back is now illegal to own or buy (thanks Clinton).

MadMike · 04-06-07, 09:35 PM

OK, let's clarify something here.
First, paragraph 701 pertains to "whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof." This pertains to official badges used by the FBI, Secret Service, Department of Energy, etc. Has absolutely nothing to do with military medals. Read on.

Paragraph 704 states "Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both." Specific section on punishment for wear of MOH not entitled to it are discussed in para (b).

There is absolutely no prohibition on imagery of U.S. medals or insignia on clothing, coffee cups, or in video games...

Yours, Mike

fullmetaledges · 04-06-07, 09:37 PM

You can make a graphical representation of any medal you want, just like you can make a painting of a military person with there awards on. Whomever made the call misinterpreted the laws on this.

Tigrone · 04-06-07, 09:45 PM

And, I believe, Drebbel has been court martialed for this sort of scuttlebutt in the past. He is a known agent provocateur. You guys are so dumb. There is nothing that prevents the common and proper rendering of images of US decorations, so long as they do not discredit the decoration. The world is not flat. Ubisoft is selling games right now with such images in them. This is even covered in US Department of Defence (DOD) directives, which are incorporated in the regulations of all the US services. Here is the Army & Air Force extract of the DOD policy directive:

32 C.F.R. § 507.11 Reproduction of designs.
(a) The photographing, printing, or, in any manner making or executing any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any decoration, service medal, service ribbon, badge, lapel button, insignia, or other device, or the colorable imitation thereof, of a design prescribed by the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Air Force for use by members of the Army or the Air Force is authorized provided that such reproduction does not bring discredit upon the military service and is not used to defraud or to misrepresent the identification or status of an individual, organization, society, or other group of persons.

The dumb quote Drebbel tricked you with just says that you cannot forge Identification Cards and Identification Badges. It has not nothing to do with this. Dare I say it, it is Off Topic.

It's time for Drebbel to walk the plank.

04-06-07, 09:59 PM

I find the gov't lawsuit excuse laughable. Tell that story to the Call of Duty dev's. Die 20 times on one level and you get the Purple Heart award.

Anyhow, the awards in SH4 are SO corny and childish as to be offensive. The awards in SH3 were well done and very dignified.

AVGWarhawk · 04-07-07, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

I find the gov't lawsuit excuse laughable. Tell that story to the Call of Duty dev's. Die 20 times on one level and you get the Purple Heart award.

Anyhow, the awards in SH4 are SO corny and childish as to be offensive. The awards in SH3 were well done and very dignified.

They need some work for sure. As far as legality issue. There is no issue.

Drebbel · 04-07-07, 06:43 AM

Remember this is not the official statement from UBI. But just my 2cts from putting 2 and 2 together.

Drebbel

PS: of course I also consulted my under cover informers

Sailor Steve · 04-07-07, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drebbel

PS: of course I also consulted my under cover informers

So, am I gonna get paid this time?

Hans Schultz · 04-07-07, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullmetaledges

You can make a graphical representation of any medal you want, just like you can make a painting of a military person with there awards on. Whomever made the call misinterpreted the laws on this.

exactly, this law was intended to prevent people from wearing/claiming to have or earn medals that they did not. But the law being so vauge it has hurt the US militaria market and collectors of WWII militaria.

Limerick · 04-07-07, 11:02 AM

Let me get this straight......

You can make a game in which a U.S. attack sub commander can surface a U.S. boat with an historical U.S. Navy name and hull number, machine-gun life boats to up your tonnage total but you can't pin a Bronze Star on your Chief-of-the-Boat for saving that boat from sinking?

I hardly believe that the DOD would go after Ubi for the medals.

04-06-07, 08:28 PM	#34
Mylander Torpedoman Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Bern, NC, USA Posts: 120 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Ubi doesn't want to/won't do it because of past bad experience with IL-2 etc... Can't say I blame them. Let an anonymous modder do it - no one is going to prosecute. JAG has many far more important things to worry about. SH IV doesn't put the US military in any kind of bad light. The military would only come out looking stupid and petty if they made a stink. They don't give a rat's @$$ about this. Mylander __________________ Periscope depth... Up Scope...

04-06-07, 09:23 PM	#36
GSpector Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 676 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Actually NovaLogic tried to copyright the use of the F-22 in their Sim so that they could take other developers to Court for using the F-22 in other Sims. Lockheed had to step in and stated that due to their work belonging to the U.S. Citizens (through use of the U.S. Military), no company had the right to exclusive use of any Military Hardware so any U.S. Developer that wanted to use any hardware could do so. Now, using the likeness of any of the U.S. Branches is a different matter. And I do believe that's why there is no reference to the U.S. Navy anywhere in SH4. As for buying copies of the U.S. Medals, why, you can legally buy any and all real U.S. Medals in many Military Surplus stores or here : http://www.usmedals.com with the exception of the CMOH. So YES, the President can make laws (with the support of Congress). As it stand, even a CMOH that's stamped "COPY" on the back is now illegal to own or buy (thanks Clinton). __________________ Specter

04-06-07, 09:45 PM	#39
Tigrone Commander Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Newport Beach, CA Posts: 470 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	You guys must remember this is coming from Drebbel. And, I believe, Drebbel has been court martialed for this sort of scuttlebutt in the past. He is a known agent provocateur. You guys are so dumb. There is nothing that prevents the common and proper rendering of images of US decorations, so long as they do not discredit the decoration. The world is not flat. Ubisoft is selling games right now with such images in them. This is even covered in US Department of Defence (DOD) directives, which are incorporated in the regulations of all the US services. Here is the Army & Air Force extract of the DOD policy directive: 32 C.F.R. § 507.11 Reproduction of designs. (a) The photographing, printing, or, in any manner making or executing any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any decoration, service medal, service ribbon, badge, lapel button, insignia, or other device, or the colorable imitation thereof, of a design prescribed by the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Air Force for use by members of the Army or the Air Force is authorized provided that such reproduction does not bring discredit upon the military service and is not used to defraud or to misrepresent the identification or status of an individual, organization, society, or other group of persons. The dumb quote Drebbel tricked you with just says that you cannot forge Identification Cards and Identification Badges. It has not nothing to do with this. Dare I say it, it is Off Topic. It's time for Drebbel to walk the plank. __________________ Commander Hiram Cassedy: "Tigrone has saved the Air Force and is now returning to Iwo Jima with 28 rescued zoomies." B-29 SNUFFY & THE SHIF'LESS SKONKS among them. I've a broom at the mast said he, for the broom is a sign for me, that wherever I go, I sweep the mighty sea.

04-06-07, 09:35 PM	#37
MadMike Watch Officer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 342 Downloads: 241 Uploads: 0	OK, let's clarify something here. First, paragraph 701 pertains to "whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof." This pertains to official badges used by the FBI, Secret Service, Department of Energy, etc. Has absolutely nothing to do with military medals. Read on. Paragraph 704 states "Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both." Specific section on punishment for wear of MOH not entitled to it are discussed in para (b). There is absolutely no prohibition on imagery of U.S. medals or insignia on clothing, coffee cups, or in video games... Yours, Mike

04-06-07, 09:37 PM	#38
fullmetaledges Chief Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 314 Downloads: 120 Uploads: 0	You can make a graphical representation of any medal you want, just like you can make a painting of a military person with there awards on. Whomever made the call misinterpreted the laws on this.

04-06-07, 09:59 PM	#40
Grunt Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I find the gov't lawsuit excuse laughable. Tell that story to the Call of Duty dev's. Die 20 times on one level and you get the Purple Heart award. Anyhow, the awards in SH4 are SO corny and childish as to be offensive. The awards in SH3 were well done and very dignified.

04-07-07, 06:43 AM	#42
Drebbel Dutch Sea Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Almost at periscope death ! Posts: 1,665 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Remember this is not the official statement from UBI. But just my 2cts from putting 2 and 2 together. Drebbel PS: of course I also consulted my under cover informers

04-07-07, 11:02 AM	#45
Limerick Watch Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Let me get this straight...... You can make a game in which a U.S. attack sub commander can surface a U.S. boat with an historical U.S. Navy name and hull number, machine-gun life boats to up your tonnage total but you can't pin a Bronze Star on your Chief-of-the-Boat for saving that boat from sinking? I hardly believe that the DOD would go after Ubi for the medals.