S-Boat not historically correct

sea enemy · 04-06-07, 12:23 PM

Hi,
I'm sorry if this has been covered before, I couldn't find any relevant searches.

I just got around to driving some S-Boats, and:
The S-Boat, from what I understand, SHOULD NOT have a TDC with a PK, or echo ranging at the sonar station. The Mk.10 was a straight running torpedo, and the skipper of the S-Boat had to conn the firing angle on the bow, driving the boat into the shot.

Also, from what I gather, the only sound gear available on the S-boat was the hydrophone..I don't think supersonic echo ranging was added to the boats (I'm not sure if this was a wartime modification?)

Anyways...It'd be nice to have the boat more realistically modeled-there should be more nuance to a modeled ship than a 3d model with crush depth and speed.
Fire control is the 'meat' of this game. If the fire control isn't right, no need to have it as a playable, imho.

NefariousKoel · 04-06-07, 01:00 PM

S-boats weren't supposed to be in but a number of people complained so the devs just tossed it in at the last minute.

I don't really care for playing a lil S boat but maybe you should keep the TDC slideout panel closed and fire that way? I don't think it's a very important fix.

TheSatyr · 04-06-07, 01:04 PM

I imagine the TDC is in the S boats because the "is/was" (Banjo) would have been too hard to model. It basically did the same thing,only it took a little longer. Though it's been said in a few books that a master of the banjo could often beat a TDC to a target solution.

As for the MKXs,I agree that they are messed up in game.

I'm not familiar enough about S boat sonar suites to have a comment on that.

Torpex752 · 04-06-07, 04:10 PM

100% realism on my S-Boat, 3rd war patrol and 145,000 tons sunk. Thats with a TDC. If there was a switch to remove the TDC I'd use it.

Historically the S-Boat did not hace any such items: Active target ranging, fathometer, or TDC. They did have a Conning tower but I am not sure exactly what it was used for.

Frank

sea enemy · 04-06-07, 05:18 PM

Quote:

I don't really care for playing a lil S boat but maybe you should keep the TDC slideout panel closed and fire that way?

Yep, I've been trying that-pretty math intensive, but fun-and hits are particularly rewarding...
Using a speed estimation table with the solution for the torp run at 17.4yds/sec at distance will give you the proper amount of lead in degrees, and cross the old mk.I fingers.

elanaiba · 04-06-07, 05:59 PM

Are you positive the Mk10s were straight running (in ohter words, not capable of taking a turn to a gyro angle)? My sources seem to indicate the contrary....

WilhelmSchulz. · 04-06-07, 06:07 PM

I remember in "Run Silent Run Deep" the XO of the S-4 was on Command Qual. test and he had to do a spread. They used gyro angles.

NefariousKoel · 04-06-07, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea enemy

Quote:

I don't really care for playing a lil S boat but maybe you should keep the TDC slideout panel closed and fire that way?

Yep, I've been trying that-pretty math intensive, but fun-and hits are particularly rewarding...
Using a speed estimation table with the solution for the torp run at 17.4yds/sec at distance will give you the proper amount of lead in degrees, and cross the old mk.I fingers.

Cool

sea enemy · 04-06-07, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Are you positive the Mk10s were straight running

I'm no naval munition expert, but, that's what I've read. Remember, the Mk.10 is from 1918..while the S-boat may have had some angle control (I don't know) I don't think that the MK.10 was really that far advanced from the old whitehead.

WilhelmSchulz. · 04-06-07, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea enemy

Quote:

Are you positive the Mk10s were straight running

I'm no naval munition expert, but, that's what I've read. Remember, the Mk.10 is from 1918..while the S-boat may have had some angle control (I don't know) I don't think that the MK.10 was really that far advanced from the old whitehead.

The Mk.10 was built for the S-Boat. So I belive it had gyro capabilitys. Not much I belive but some.

Torpex752 · 04-06-07, 09:52 PM

The MK-10 torpedo did have gyro pots which did allow lead angle input. On the S-Class this was done manually on the sides of the tubes with setting orders given from the CO/XO via sound powered phones.
When the MK-10 were loaded aboard newer class subs, those gyro pots were adaptable to the newer fire control systems, like the MK-1 TDC, however due to their age and the navy's torpedo turnaround system the gyro pots gears were worn which gave allot of trouble and bad gyro angle inputs to the torps, causing errors. The Book "war in the boats" tells a bit of information about these problems.

Frank

Charos · 04-06-07, 10:07 PM

The first US submarine designed to use the The first US submarine designed to use the TDC was the USS Tambor which deployed in 1940 with the TDC MK III.

From what I could find there was 6 MKII TDC's made but I have not seen any information to state they were pressed into service.
Other than the MKII being half the size and simpler than the MKIII I have not seen any other info.

I assume the MK I was only used as a prototype?

Not only that but the MK10's didnt have magnetic influence triggers either just impact.

Interesting S-Class action article on the Aleutians:

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87.../forgotten.htm

EDIT: http://weblog.ceicher.com/archives/2...c_mk3_and.html

But more amazing were the details of the restoration of the Torpedo Battle Computer. The original TDC Mk 1 is credited to the Arma Corporation, E. Don Gittens of MIT produced the design, and is interviewed extensively on the program. He described redesigning the Mk 1 prototype unit for compactness and battle hardening, producing the Mk 3 units at Arma Corp, and going to sea to train crews on the complex TDC operations.

DiveMonkey · 04-06-07, 11:12 PM

Not to interrupt, but is anyone else having problems aiming the deck gun on the S-18 ?

First couple shots look good but soon I'm having to adjust far right or left clear off the cross hare

This is a legal copy and I am using the disc.

sorry if it's a known bug. hope we get 1.2 soon

Charos · 04-06-07, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiveMonkey

Not to interrupt, but is anyone else having problems aiming the deck gun on the S-18 ?

First couple shots look good but soon I'm having to adjust far right or left clear off the cross hare

This is a legal copy and I am using the disc.

sorry if it's a known bug. hope we get 1.2 soon

I noticed this the first time the other night (Reticle crosshair was off to the left)
but I usually use the AI to fire the gun so im not shore how often this happens -- nothing new though this happened in SH3.

DiveMonkey · 04-06-07, 11:53 PM

Yea, been trying to run a career in the S boat, but with only four forward firing tubes the deck gun becomes an essential peace of equipment.

Three times now I've I've taken her out and all three times I've wound up in a gun fight

Sometimes shots wondering to the right, sometime too the left

Guess I'll be leaving the old girl back at port til this gets sorted

04-06-07, 12:23 PM	#1
sea enemy Mate Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 52 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	S-Boat not historically correct Hi, I'm sorry if this has been covered before, I couldn't find any relevant searches. I just got around to driving some S-Boats, and: The S-Boat, from what I understand, SHOULD NOT have a TDC with a PK, or echo ranging at the sonar station. The Mk.10 was a straight running torpedo, and the skipper of the S-Boat had to conn the firing angle on the bow, driving the boat into the shot. Also, from what I gather, the only sound gear available on the S-boat was the hydrophone..I don't think supersonic echo ranging was added to the boats (I'm not sure if this was a wartime modification?) Anyways...It'd be nice to have the boat more realistically modeled-there should be more nuance to a modeled ship than a 3d model with crush depth and speed. Fire control is the 'meat' of this game. If the fire control isn't right, no need to have it as a playable, imho. __________________ Currently onboard USS Cuttlefish (SS171) Sub school, New London, CT

04-06-07, 01:00 PM	#2
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	S-boats weren't supposed to be in but a number of people complained so the devs just tossed it in at the last minute. I don't really care for playing a lil S boat but maybe you should keep the TDC slideout panel closed and fire that way? I don't think it's a very important fix. __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

04-06-07, 06:07 PM	#7
WilhelmSchulz. The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Virgina Beach Posts: 1,301 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	I remember in "Run Silent Run Deep" the XO of the S-4 was on Command Qual. test and he had to do a spread. They used gyro angles. __________________ "Some ships are designed to sink… others require our assistance."

04-06-07, 10:07 PM	#12
Charos Helmsman Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 109 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	The first US submarine designed to use the The first US submarine designed to use the TDC was the USS Tambor which deployed in 1940 with the TDC MK III. From what I could find there was 6 MKII TDC's made but I have not seen any information to state they were pressed into service. Other than the MKII being half the size and simpler than the MKIII I have not seen any other info. I assume the MK I was only used as a prototype? Not only that but the MK10's didnt have magnetic influence triggers either just impact. Interesting S-Class action article on the Aleutians: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87.../forgotten.htm EDIT: http://weblog.ceicher.com/archives/2...c_mk3_and.html But more amazing were the details of the restoration of the Torpedo Battle Computer. The original TDC Mk 1 is credited to the Arma Corporation, E. Don Gittens of MIT produced the design, and is interviewed extensively on the program. He described redesigning the Mk 1 prototype unit for compactness and battle hardening, producing the Mk 3 units at Arma Corp, and going to sea to train crews on the complex TDC operations. Last edited by Charos; 04-06-07 at 10:27 PM.

04-06-07, 01:04 PM	#3
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I imagine the TDC is in the S boats because the "is/was" (Banjo) would have been too hard to model. It basically did the same thing,only it took a little longer. Though it's been said in a few books that a master of the banjo could often beat a TDC to a target solution. As for the MKXs,I agree that they are messed up in game. I'm not familiar enough about S boat sonar suites to have a comment on that.

04-06-07, 04:10 PM	#4
Torpex752 Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep River, CT Posts: 255 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	100% realism on my S-Boat, 3rd war patrol and 145,000 tons sunk. Thats with a TDC. If there was a switch to remove the TDC I'd use it. Historically the S-Boat did not hace any such items: Active target ranging, fathometer, or TDC. They did have a Conning tower but I am not sure exactly what it was used for. Frank

04-06-07, 05:59 PM	#6
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	Are you positive the Mk10s were straight running (in ohter words, not capable of taking a turn to a gyro angle)? My sources seem to indicate the contrary....

04-06-07, 09:52 PM	#11
Torpex752 Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep River, CT Posts: 255 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	The MK-10 torpedo did have gyro pots which did allow lead angle input. On the S-Class this was done manually on the sides of the tubes with setting orders given from the CO/XO via sound powered phones. When the MK-10 were loaded aboard newer class subs, those gyro pots were adaptable to the newer fire control systems, like the MK-1 TDC, however due to their age and the navy's torpedo turnaround system the gyro pots gears were worn which gave allot of trouble and bad gyro angle inputs to the torps, causing errors. The Book "war in the boats" tells a bit of information about these problems. Frank

04-06-07, 11:12 PM	#13
DiveMonkey Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 111 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Not to interrupt, but is anyone else having problems aiming the deck gun on the S-18 ? First couple shots look good but soon I'm having to adjust far right or left clear off the cross hare This is a legal copy and I am using the disc. sorry if it's a known bug. hope we get 1.2 soon

04-06-07, 11:53 PM	#15
DiveMonkey Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 111 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yea, been trying to run a career in the S boat, but with only four forward firing tubes the deck gun becomes an essential peace of equipment. Three times now I've I've taken her out and all three times I've wound up in a gun fight Sometimes shots wondering to the right, sometime too the left Guess I'll be leaving the old girl back at port til this gets sorted