Iranian mindgames

A couple of questions. Are these folks in the military? Is the British military not voluntary? Why is it that they are under 'a lot of stress'? Do the Brits not train their soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen?

Stop treating these people as civilians. It was their job to go in harms way. This 'OMG' my poor child syndrome has to end. These people knew or should have known that their job will put them in danger. This isn't a game we play on our computers. It is real life.

[Skybird]

What have you all expected - that they would be kept in a five-star hotel with room service and Geishas on call? If one is defending the practices at Guantanamo, one can hardly complain about the treatment of the sailors in Iran. If it is no bad treatment here, then it cannot be called bad treatment there.

The public has no evidence of what happened during the incident. the public also has not seen evidences concerning the accusations of the prisoners in Guantanamo. A photo showing a hand holding a GPS device is simply no evidence, it could have been taken anywehre, after the incident, with a manipulated device. We (the public) simply don't now, and will not know as long as there is no analogue air or satellite picture showing the boats and the coastline so that the exact position can be calculated. And even that could be forged. Even easier with digital images.

I don't trust anybody concerning this incident.

[RedMenace]

Y'all do realize that the US does the exact same thing, right? This isn't anything new or unsual folks, go back to bed.

[ASWnut101]

Really?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

Really?

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/doc...al_version.pdf

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=30530

[ASWnut101]

Intresting. I hardly call most of that tourture, but I can see a few slipping though the cracks. No biggie, they got what they deserved, I think.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

Intresting. I hardly call most of that tourture, but I can see a few slipping though the cracks. No biggie, they got what they deserved, I think.

They got what they deserved? Prove it, show the evidence, at least the hints. You can't. Counterchecking the Guantanamo is actively prevented.. You know nothing about why somebody is being send there - amongst others also in YOUR name. That's what is wrong with that system. That's what a legal system usually tries to make sure: that's it's acts and decisions can be counterchecked from outside the legal system. That is what basic democratic oprinciples are about: counter checking, "checks and balance", that no authority of executive, legislative, government can ever be totally beyond control. In guantanamo, you have just arbitrary ruling, and the public, like you, forms opinions about wether it is justified or not not even on the basis of hear-say, but only - by personal, unfounded imagination. It is about making it acceptable, and prevent opposing opinions. for the same reason why Bush only talks about war in terror, but never about the war in Iraq, war in Afghanistan, gobal military opoerations that are specified in name and definition - he hopes that all these wars will be unopposed if he loinks them to this idiitoic word-construction "war on terror". Ridiculous. It seems that the democrats currently are enforcing new word-regulations in the defense ministry that are aiming at preventing this generalization to deceive the public. That is good.

What is also wrong is the possebilities of arbitrarily arresting someone without that someone having any chance to ever proove his innocence. If I would travel to the US, and would be held for somebody else at the harbour or airport, and get arrested, I can loose years of my life, being held, being tortured and mistreated, and afterwards having no chance to ever demand any form of compensation, or even an excuse - nothing. This has already happened a lot of times to foreigners beign happy to have been picked up. I can not call anybody outside who could proove they got the wrong man. I must not even be charged with any accusation. Hell, by the laws of your country American secret agents even can kidnapp me from my home in Germany, and get me there. THIS IS IN NO WAY ANY DIFFERENT FROM THE GESTAPO SYSTEM: IT IS NOT DIFFERENT AT ALL. IT IMAKES MOCKERY OF THE AMERICAN STANDARDS CONCERNING JUSTICE AND LEGAL SYSTEM, IT SEVERLY DEGRADES MUCH OF WHAT WAS AND IS GOOD IN AMERICAN HISTORY, AND IS A CRYING SHAME FOR THE UNITED STATES. -

Strange that you can't see the torture in it; for me privately as well as fro an ex-professional perspective when I dealt with torture victims from the Balkans, it is crystal clear. I expect you to accept torture only when it is about electro-shocks, cuts with knifes, bleeding wounds, lots of blood and using white-glowing iron on naked skin, then? I wonder if you would think the same way if you would be made subject to the hospitality of Guantanamo. Don't believe every silly wordgame your stupig "president" or Cheney is playing on you. "alternative forms of interrogations"? What about an alternative form of hospitality, then...? Alternative forms of interrogation are methods of torture that try to mimic a non-torturing treatment, and hide from the public where pain and suffering and fear of death is inflicted during interrogation.

Guantanamo is a shame for your country. Get rid of it, and get rid of those criminals who talked you into accepting it. America should and mujst be better than this.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by waste gate

A couple of questions. Are these folks in the military? Is the British military not voluntary? Why is it that they are under 'a lot of stress'? Do the Brits not train their soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen?

Stop treating these people as civilians. It was their job to go in harms way. This 'OMG' my poor child syndrome has to end. These people knew or should have known that their job will put them in danger. This isn't a game we play on our computers. It is real life.

This is not an "if-or" statement. I'd argue that they made the smart and equally courageous choice. It is not physically courageous, certainly. But then, physical courage is easy (relatively) or at least common. Countless Japanese died showing how common it is in WWII, as do Palestinian car-bombers, 9/11 kamikaze hijackers ... etc.

Their decision to talk was not only self-preserving, but morally courageous. Freeing yourselves from the shackles of ironbound rules and traditions to make an intelligent decision requires this moral courage. Loss of telling to country = minimal to none. Loss of not cooperating = great personal pain, probable eventual acquiesance and damage to national morale from loss of personnel. Decision = Cooperate.

In pure quantity, moral courage may or may not be higher than physical courage. What's definite is that it is a much rarer trait. Countless Japanese died because they lacked the moral courage to buck their tradition and laws. Moral courage is generally so lacking it can't be invoked in experimental situations (see, Milgram).

No doubt self-preservation played a part, but this moral courage might have been the other part of it too.