[REQ] Escort types in campaign

AntEater · 04-03-07, 01:36 PM

Sofar I, all the convoys I ran into were mostly escorted by fleet destroyers.
Especially stupid were the huge numbers of Akizuki class AA destroyers.
While this is certainly one of the most beautiful warships ever build, Akizukis and other fleet destroyers were high value ships and were mostly escorting fleet units or really high value convoys. They should be rarer.
In 1944, some older regular fleet destroyers (early Fubukis and Shiratsuyus) should escort convoys, but the vast majority of late war convoy escorts should be subchasers, minesweepers, minelayers (do they have DCs in SH4?) and old destroyers.
In mid- early war, older destroyers and minesweepers, but no fleet destroyers at all, except for troop convoys for landing operations like Guadalcanal or so.
The hordes of Akizukis (I sank 4 in 2 war patrols on USS Mudskipper) are boring.
Sh4 has so many ship types, yet the campaign does seem to use only half of them.

tater · 04-03-07, 03:33 PM

^^^

tater · 04-03-07, 05:23 PM

OK, I took a look at the campaign files. Open the random layers of things like convoys. There are files by year. Early in the war, the cnvoys are just too large. A few might represent important military convoys, to and from invasion forces/supplies to the front, etc, but it's way overdone, IMO.

Most have multiple Fleet DDs at 100% probability. For 1942, many of these should be unescorted. What I also noticed is that the escorts are USUALLY set to novice and poor AI levels. So we have mods to make them more effective, but more often than not the escorts are actually set to be idiots. THAT is the problem. The task forces have higher skill levels set. This would explain all the wierd posts where one guy says the AI is a joke, another gets hounded for 3 hours. Probably "poor" vs "elite" crews.

I think the bare minimum crew quality for a fleet DD should be "competant." The subchasers, etc, might vary a lot, even the mine sweepers and minelayers, but fleet ships? Competant and up. If at that point the AI seems lacking, only then will I think about installing a mod except for stuff like visibility, which I still think is lacking.

Note also that the the most common escorts for merchants are the Mutsuki (1926) and Fubuki (1928) Classes. The Minekaze (1919) Class doesn't get used at all that I can see. Early in the war they got DCs. If the in-game version has DCs, I'd tend to want to use those (representing both Minekaze and Kamikaze Classes). The existing choices of Mutsuki and Fubuki are not bad, at least they are older, smaller DDs.

We need some Auxiliary Cruisers for convoy protection (armed, converted merchantmen). http://www.combinedfleet.com/Hokoku_t.htm . Other than that, I'd tend to make the 100% occurance of escorts be subchasers, with DDs only as occasional escorts, and if there is one, then an old one. Minesweepers are another good choice. In '43 and '44, most were conversted to convoy escorts. If they don't have DCs in game now, that might be a good mod to do, eliminate the minesweeping gear and replace with 36 DCs.

Minelayers are a nice change of pace as well, but there were only 5 or 6 of them, lol.

tater

U-Bones · 04-03-07, 05:31 PM

Nice work !

nimitstexan · 04-03-07, 10:30 PM

Good work.

Fleet destroyers were present in convoy, especially troop convoys in contested waters, but they should not be there 100%.

One note on Japanese DD skill, though: even though IJN fleet destroyers were often very skilled in anti-shipping duties, that skill did not necessarily carry over into ASW. Note the example of the Kagero class Urukaze: http://www.combinedfleet.com/subura.htm

akdavis · 04-03-07, 10:54 PM

well, on this topic, I had an interesting run-in north of Luzon several days after the war starts: big task force followed by a handful of small passenger carriers. Task Force was composed entirely of Agano light cruisers (at least 3) and Akizuki destroyers (a minimum of 10, maybe more).

tater · 04-03-07, 10:56 PM

True, that is certainly a problem. It's a problem that matters to the player, though, since I imagine that the DD's capability against surfaced subs is just as tied to AI quality.

So set a DD to "poor" and it'll do nothing well, even permitting a sub to cruise right by on the surface.

You are right about strictly military convoys though.

As I posted in the research thread, about 41% the shipping was civilian. This shipping simply got not escort before maybe late '43. ASW sweeps that were a zonal thing, but not escorts sticking with them as SOP. The rest was merchant shipping commandeered by the IJA and IJN--more of the former than the latter. The IJA had few escorts, and since the IJA didn't get along with the IJN, that means another 35% basically unescorted. That's 76% unescorted as a baseline. Sure, the odd improtant ARMY convoy might manage to convince the IJN to help, but it would be rare.

tater

04-03-07, 01:36 PM	#1
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	[REQ] Escort types in campaign Sofar I, all the convoys I ran into were mostly escorted by fleet destroyers. Especially stupid were the huge numbers of Akizuki class AA destroyers. While this is certainly one of the most beautiful warships ever build, Akizukis and other fleet destroyers were high value ships and were mostly escorting fleet units or really high value convoys. They should be rarer. In 1944, some older regular fleet destroyers (early Fubukis and Shiratsuyus) should escort convoys, but the vast majority of late war convoy escorts should be subchasers, minesweepers, minelayers (do they have DCs in SH4?) and old destroyers. In mid- early war, older destroyers and minesweepers, but no fleet destroyers at all, except for troop convoys for landing operations like Guadalcanal or so. The hordes of Akizukis (I sank 4 in 2 war patrols on USS Mudskipper) are boring. Sh4 has so many ship types, yet the campaign does seem to use only half of them. __________________

04-03-07, 10:54 PM	#6
akdavis Samurai Navy Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 597 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	well, on this topic, I had an interesting run-in north of Luzon several days after the war starts: big task force followed by a handful of small passenger carriers. Task Force was composed entirely of Agano light cruisers (at least 3) and Akizuki destroyers (a minimum of 10, maybe more). __________________ -AKD

04-03-07, 03:33 PM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	^^^

04-03-07, 05:23 PM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	OK, I took a look at the campaign files. Open the random layers of things like convoys. There are files by year. Early in the war, the cnvoys are just too large. A few might represent important military convoys, to and from invasion forces/supplies to the front, etc, but it's way overdone, IMO. Most have multiple Fleet DDs at 100% probability. For 1942, many of these should be unescorted. What I also noticed is that the escorts are USUALLY set to novice and poor AI levels. So we have mods to make them more effective, but more often than not the escorts are actually set to be idiots. THAT is the problem. The task forces have higher skill levels set. This would explain all the wierd posts where one guy says the AI is a joke, another gets hounded for 3 hours. Probably "poor" vs "elite" crews. I think the bare minimum crew quality for a fleet DD should be "competant." The subchasers, etc, might vary a lot, even the mine sweepers and minelayers, but fleet ships? Competant and up. If at that point the AI seems lacking, only then will I think about installing a mod except for stuff like visibility, which I still think is lacking. Note also that the the most common escorts for merchants are the Mutsuki (1926) and Fubuki (1928) Classes. The Minekaze (1919) Class doesn't get used at all that I can see. Early in the war they got DCs. If the in-game version has DCs, I'd tend to want to use those (representing both Minekaze and Kamikaze Classes). The existing choices of Mutsuki and Fubuki are not bad, at least they are older, smaller DDs. We need some Auxiliary Cruisers for convoy protection (armed, converted merchantmen). http://www.combinedfleet.com/Hokoku_t.htm . Other than that, I'd tend to make the 100% occurance of escorts be subchasers, with DDs only as occasional escorts, and if there is one, then an old one. Minesweepers are another good choice. In '43 and '44, most were conversted to convoy escorts. If they don't have DCs in game now, that might be a good mod to do, eliminate the minesweeping gear and replace with 36 DCs. Minelayers are a nice change of pace as well, but there were only 5 or 6 of them, lol. tater

04-03-07, 05:31 PM	#4
U-Bones Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Treading Water Posts: 847 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	Nice work !

04-03-07, 10:30 PM	#5
nimitstexan Loader Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 87 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Good work. Fleet destroyers were present in convoy, especially troop convoys in contested waters, but they should not be there 100%. One note on Japanese DD skill, though: even though IJN fleet destroyers were often very skilled in anti-shipping duties, that skill did not necessarily carry over into ASW. Note the example of the Kagero class Urukaze: http://www.combinedfleet.com/subura.htm

04-03-07, 10:56 PM	#7
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	True, that is certainly a problem. It's a problem that matters to the player, though, since I imagine that the DD's capability against surfaced subs is just as tied to AI quality. So set a DD to "poor" and it'll do nothing well, even permitting a sub to cruise right by on the surface. You are right about strictly military convoys though. As I posted in the research thread, about 41% the shipping was civilian. This shipping simply got not escort before maybe late '43. ASW sweeps that were a zonal thing, but not escorts sticking with them as SOP. The rest was merchant shipping commandeered by the IJA and IJN--more of the former than the latter. The IJA had few escorts, and since the IJA didn't get along with the IJN, that means another 35% basically unescorted. That's 76% unescorted as a baseline. Sure, the odd improtant ARMY convoy might manage to convince the IJN to help, but it would be rare. tater