Binocular view problem?

[ryuzu]

Originally Posted by panthercules

LOL - I'll say it's a big problem. So nobody has a solution to this issue?

Let me see - based on what I've seen and read so far:

1. you can't use the binoculars on the bridge to approach or attack on the surface;

I've used the binocs to approach on the surface - no problem that I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by panthercules

2. you can't avoid the "monolith of FPS death" or whatever they're calling the anomaly that turns the game into a slideshow when you try to look in certain directions (didn't see the monolith itself but I sure did experience the total loss of FPS in the navigation tutorial where I discovered the binoculars thing);

This can be avoided by turning off the Environmental Effects for now. You lose fog (and see through crew men) but you gain FPS. That fixed it for me (and it was a fairly rare event albeit extremely irritating).

Originally Posted by panthercules

3. you can't reliably conduct submerged attacks using manual targeting because the TDC doesn't work correctly half the time;

There are some issues with the TDC but nothing that should stop you putting in a decent performance with it (assuming you use it correctly - that requires a bit of readnig and experimenting just like the real thing).

Originally Posted by panthercules

4. you can't even enjoy the external camera views of your boat because even though the graphics seem to hold great promise in some respects, without FSAA the jaggies are so bad you spend all your time wondering why you bought that $400-$500 video card...

Graphics ..... in a sim - who cares? Wrong genre for that....

Originally Posted by panthercules

:hmm: Not sure what else you're really supposed to do in a sub sim - I knew there were issues from reading the forums, but I really hoped I'd at least be able to load it up and play around with it a little to learn the controls and features and stuff while waiting for the next patch (after all, it took them until patch 1.4 to get SH3 really good and stable). However, as much as I hate to be negative, this is pretty much unplayable (for me anyway) in its current state. I hope the devs can hurry up and patch this thing up to something respectable, 'cause there seems to be a lot of potential here for a really fine game if they get it together. In the meantime, I guess it's back to SH3 to explore the latest NYGM and GWX for a bit.

From your description, itr seems like you've just heard all those problems repeated by others rather than tried them out for yourself to see how much of an issue they really are. There is rather a lot of disinformation going around about SH4 at the moment.

You said "what else is there to do in a sub sim" - well there is rather a lot but it is not modelled in SH4 regardless. The problems you listed are relatively minor in gameplay terms given SH4 as it stands.

EDIT : BTW I can't see what the problem is with the crew and tower - you couldn't see through them in real life, so why here. Moving around the tower would be the right solution - an invisible crew is just covering up one problem with another. I'd rather keep it as it is and let the crew do at least one useful thing on the boat.

r.

[panthercules]

Originally Posted by ryuzu

I've used the binocs to approach on the surface - no problem that I'm aware of.

Well, I like to be able to sweep the horizon with the binocs while I'm trying to make my end-around to reach position for my approach to the target - if 50% or more of the horizon is blocked by crew heads and superstructure while in binocs view, then this isn't really possible. Using the TBT as someone else suggested may be an acceptable workaround for now - I'll try it, but if it's essentially like using the UZO in SH3 then it won't really be the same thing, especially in darkness or near-darkness conditions when all the extra HUD elements on the UZO screen tended to make it really hard to see things out there in the dark. From a logical perspective, the TBT would presumably be even more limited in a fixed position than a guy with binoculars, so if everything can go "invisible" for the TBT view (which IRL certainly would not be able to get an unobstructed 360-degree view from its fixed position) then it certainly ought to be able to do so for the binocs view. Plus, using the UZO/TBT just doesn't "feel" the same (from an immersion perspective) as scanning with binocs - a small point to be sure, but for me a subsim is really all about the immersion factor. For me, without immersion it's just an arcade shooter, and there are certainly more interesting formats and genres if all you want is an arcade shooter.

Originally Posted by ryuzu

This can be avoided by turning off the Environmental Effects for now. You lose fog (and see through crew men) but you gain FPS. That fixed it for me (and it was a fairly rare event albeit extremely irritating).

I can try this - I'm not sure what losing see through crewmen means, but losing fog would be a huge sacrifice for me, since some of the more intense moments in SH3 came during approaches and attacks during "fog"/low visibility conditions, and I would hate not to be able to have fog work in SH4

Originally Posted by ryuzu

There are some issues with the TDC but nothing that should stop you putting in a decent performance with it (assuming you use it correctly - that requires a bit of readnig and experimenting just like the real thing).

Well, I haven't gotten to the point of conducting torpedo attacks yet, but from reading several threads here it sounds like there's still some significant bugs in the way the TDC/position keeper mechanism in game deals with targets on part side versus starboard side, and I haven't seen any indication that this has been fixed or a viable workaround developed yet. I don't mind spending time learning the new/different way the US version of this device worked compared to the German one in SH3 (in fact, I was looking forward to it), but I don't want to have to plan all my attacks to be from one particular side or invest a lot of time trying to learn how this thing works if it's not really working correctly in game yet, so I'm just saying that it seems better to wait on this part till the bugs get worked out of it.

Originally Posted by ryuzu

Graphics ..... in a sim - who cares? Wrong genre for that....

I sort of understand where you're coming from, but in some respects I couldn't disagree more - as noted above, the subsim genre is all about immersion - back when PC subsims were first introduced graphics didn't really matter all that much (as long as you could tell that 2 blocks and 1 stick was a destroyer and 4 blocks and 2 sticks was a freighter) because anything on the PC was more immersive than playing Avalon Hill's submarine board game. By now however, graphics have become critical for immersion - the time and effort the devs (and the modders) have obviously spent in both SH3 and SH4 improving sub, ship, water, explosion, fire, smoke, crew and other graphical elements of the game is a testament to that, and in general they've done a fantastic job improving the graphical "look and feel" of the series as it has progressed from version to version. That's what makes this jaggies business seem like such a giant step backwards, and I really hope the devs are able to put this right as they seem to be committed to do.

Originally Posted by ryuzu

From your description, itr seems like you've just heard all those problems repeated by others rather than tried them out for yourself to see how much of an issue they really are. There is rather a lot of disinformation going around about SH4 at the moment.

It's true that since my copy didn't arrive till recently I have done more reading that playing up to this point. However, I have now tried it out at least a little and have confirmed at least those problems I mentioned (except for the TDC thing, whch I haven't gotten to yet as noted above). I have great faith that the devs will eventually get this thing patched up to where it will become playable, and I'm glad that there are some folks who are able/willing to keep trying to play it now and thereby in essence serve as beta testers who can keep pointing out issues for the devs to address. I was just hoping that it would be a bit closer to playable at this stage.

[ryuzu]

Originally Posted by panthercules

Well, I like to be able to sweep the horizon with the binocs while I'm trying to make my end-around to reach position for my approach to the target - if 50% or more of the horizon is blocked by crew heads and superstructure while in binocs view, then this isn't really possible. Using the TBT as someone else suggested may be an acceptable workaround for now - I'll try it, but if it's essentially like using the UZO in SH3 then it won't really be the same thing, especially in darkness or near-darkness conditions when all the extra HUD elements on the UZO screen tended to make it really hard to see things out there in the dark. From a logical perspective, the TBT would presumably be even more limited in a fixed position than a guy with binoculars, so if everything can go "invisible" for the TBT view (which IRL certainly would not be able to get an unobstructed 360-degree view from its fixed position) then it certainly ought to be able to do so for the binocs view. Plus, using the UZO/TBT just doesn't "feel" the same (from an immersion perspective) as scanning with binocs - a small point to be sure, but for me a subsim is really all about the immersion factor. For me, without immersion it's just an arcade shooter, and there are certainly more interesting formats and genres if all you want is an arcade shooter.

Understood. For me, the fact that you can't see through crewmen is fine and really I'd prefer that to be the case for the TBT. From the position your avatar is stood in - you couldn't see through the conning tower and crewmen. I think it's unlikely the Skipper would be moving all around the Tower and peering around his crew to get a 360 view even during the final approaches of a night attack - what would be the point of having a crew?

However, the crew is rather retarded in SH4 as of now, and that is what I'd rather see fixed, than a workaround like making them all invisible.

Originally Posted by panthercules

I can try this - I'm not sure what losing see through crewmen means, but losing fog would be a huge sacrifice for me, since some of the more intense moments in SH3 came during approaches and attacks during "fog"/low visibility conditions, and I would hate not to be able to have fog work in SH4

Yes this will disable the volumetric fog graphic although the AI/player will still be limited to the view determined by the fog. It's not ideal, but for now I put up with that rather than a game crippling FPS drop at unpredictable moments.

See through crewmen -> there is (I believe) a bug where you can see through your crewmen. I've noticed that this happens when there is some fog around, it goes away when the fog is disabled. Some claimed this was deliberate to let you scan through crewmen, but I think that would be a rather poor solution and definitely an immersion killer - as it stands, if it is deliberate it is unusable anyway since you can't see any significant details through them and it doesn't occur all the time.

Originally Posted by panthercules

Well, I haven't gotten to the point of conducting torpedo attacks yet, but from reading several threads here it sounds like there's still some significant bugs in the way the TDC/position keeper mechanism in game deals with targets on part side versus starboard side, and I haven't seen any indication that this has been fixed or a viable workaround developed yet. I don't mind spending time learning the new/different way the US version of this device worked compared to the German one in SH3 (in fact, I was looking forward to it), but I don't want to have to plan all my attacks to be from one particular side or invest a lot of time trying to learn how this thing works if it's not really working correctly in game yet, so I'm just saying that it seems better to wait on this part till the bugs get worked out of it.

It's not that big of an issue - in fact, if you come to understand the issue, you'll see that while it would/will be nice to have it working, it isn't vital to conduct a successful manual TDC attack.

In essence, the PK gives you the ability to do something you could not do in a Uboat and that is to enter your range, AoB and speed solution into the TDC/PK and then check that solution before firing. The PK will plot the target course - you can allow some time to pass and then check the actual target relative bearing against where the PK says the target should be - if they're the same (or more likely similar) then you know your solution must be OK, if they differ by a large amount then the solution is incorrect. The problem of the port side AoB with the PK is that it will zero the relative bearing making it impossible to verify the solution, so in essence you're conducting a Uboat style attack at that point.

Originally Posted by panthercules

I sort of understand where you're coming from, but in some respects I couldn't disagree more - as noted above, the subsim genre is all about immersion - back when PC subsims were first introduced graphics didn't really matter all that much (as long as you could tell that 2 blocks and 1 stick was a destroyer and 4 blocks and 2 sticks was a freighter) because anything on the PC was more immersive than playing Avalon Hill's submarine board game. By now however, graphics have become critical for immersion - the time and effort the devs (and the modders) have obviously spent in both SH3 and SH4 improving sub, ship, water, explosion, fire, smoke, crew and other graphical elements of the game is a testament to that, and in general they've done a fantastic job improving the graphical "look and feel" of the series as it has progressed from version to version. That's what makes this jaggies business seem like such a giant step backwards, and I really hope the devs are able to put this right as they seem to be committed to do.

Yes it was a rather flippant comment on my part - in an ideal world you'd have a deep simulation, excellent graphics and plenty of levels of difficulty for eveyone to enjoy the experience. Given that hasn't/won't happen, my point is that people are getting upset about lack of FSAA and low resolution limits, when there are much bigger issues about immersion in my opinion.

As you said, in a sub sim, immersion is paramount, otherwise it just becomes time compression to a torpedo engagement with no player feeling for the events and little "fun".

However, for me, the immersion won't be achieved by upping the resolution to 10000x10000 or smoothing out the jaggies. It could be achieved by improving the way you interact with the crew, by modelling more of the sub, by making the issues facing you more realistic and historically accurate. Simply seeing a nicely rendered submarine will amuse a person for 10 minutes - interacting with a crew, dealing with accurate damage, controlling an accurately modelled WW2 sub, and having a meaningful effect on the game-world will keep people amused for months and years.

I'd be content if Ubi said there would be no graphics engine changes now, but they'll spend more resources on improving the depth and content of the gameplay itself. That is too hard though - it remains to be seen if they get the FSAA and resolution sorted out to people's liking.

Originally Posted by panthercules

It's true that since my copy didn't arrive till recently I have done more reading that playing up to this point. However, I have now tried it out at least a little and have confirmed at least those problems I mentioned (except for the TDC thing, whch I haven't gotten to yet as noted above). I have great faith that the devs will eventually get this thing patched up to where it will become playable, and I'm glad that there are some folks who are able/willing to keep trying to play it now and thereby in essence serve as beta testers who can keep pointing out issues for the devs to address. I was just hoping that it would be a bit closer to playable at this stage.

Well, playable seems to be a matter of opinion. I play SH4, it irritates me in places, but for the most part it is an acceptable attempt at a submarine simulation and I have derived fun from playing it. Unlike many others though, I'm not convinced that after patching and modding this will be better than SH3 + Mods...

r.

[panthercules]

Well, I hadn't really intended this to be a rant about multiple problems when I first posted it - I had hoped that the binocs thing was just something simple that I had missed and there was an easy workaround, and I just got a little frustrated when it sounded like there was no fix for this. For me, it doesn't do any good for my watch crew to call out a ship spotted bearing 125 degrees if I can't see it when I try to look 125 degrees - if it were possible to switch to the crew position at that quadrant and then look 125 degrees, that would be fine, or having things go see-through so I could look 125 degrees would be fine, but not being able to do either just stinks - after all, if I'm the skipper on the bridge and a lookout calls out a ship spotted at 125 degrees, I'll guarantee you I'd want to walk over there and take a look myself with the binocs, and the way this is set up now that's just impossible it seems, so I hope they fix that somehow.

As for the TDC thing - I'll have to go ahead and try that. From the descriptions I'd read it sounded to me like the actual TDC function of putting in the info and having it give you a proper solution that would actually fire correctly (i.e., that the torpedoes would use when fired) was broken for certain targets in certain locations - if all that's really broken is the PK's capability to check whether your solution is still correct, that would be nice to have (and certainly should be fixed at some point) but I could get by without it for a while.

As for the resolution/FSAA/jaggies thing, I agree that many of the other broken gameplay aspects should have higher priority - I was just thinking that as long as those things were broken it was a shame you couldn't at least enjoy a jaggie-free view of your sub while cruising around looking at the scenery waiting for those other things to be fixed.

I didn't really want this to sound as negative as it wound up sounding - like a lot of other folks I've just been waiting a long time to get back to the PTO (was kinda sorry initially when they went right back to the Atlantic after SH2, although I've really enjoyed SH3 since day 1). And I guess that was the biggest part of my disappointment here - maybe it's just faulty memory on my part, but even though there were obviously problems with SH3 from the start and they had to patch it to 1.4 by the end, I played every patch-version of SH3 and never found any of the problems to be so fundamental as to make me want to shelve it until a later patch came along. Yet, that's the definite feeling I get after messing around with SH4 so far. Then again, maybe it's just because there wasn't anything great to go back to when SH3 came out, whereas now we have SH3 to go back to when SH4 frustrates us - i.e., maybe I've just been spoiled by how good SH3 (as modded) has been for so long that I've lost some patience for dealing with the teething problems with this one.