Research Thread - IJN vs. Allied ASW

tater · 03-27-07, 06:11 PM

The IJNAF would have used various seaplane units to provide air cover over island bases. This would be usually a Mavis (H6K) unit. These planes should be spotted as singletons. They might bomb and report. Meanwhile (early in the war) there would be little forthcoming in terms of air attack. Hunting subs is not like hunting a CV battle group. The sub is either destroyed in the bombing, or it dives, and the added aircraft are a wasted effort.

So in a realistic H6K radius around a jap island, have a chance of a Mavis attack. Later there might be other floats (CA floats, notably). G4Ms (Betty) might also get tasked for this role sometimes as well, maybe G3Ms (Nell) as well. Seeign fighters anywhere but very close to land seems wrong, they would not have been used, it would be more of a random encounter for the fighters... "there we were, when we looked down and saw a sub. I made a hand signal to my chutai, and we strafed until the sub dived, then RTBed."

The air side of SH4 is pretty silly right now, frankly.

The IJNAF also did not have VS units as part of CV air wings. They had VB, VT, and VFs. They'd obviously likely fly some ASW patrols, but it would have to be with Kates or Vals since most Zeros didn't have radios. Regardless, I'd expect to almost always see any non-maritime patrol aircraft in 3s snce the fundamental unit of japanese aircraft organization was the 3-plane Chutai.

On a slightly related note, the IJN CVs need a mod to remove the aircraft from the flight deck. IJN doctrine had all aircraft embarked below in the hanger spaces. PLanes were fueled, amred, and warmed up below decks (mostly). This allowed the flight deck to be clear for CAP take off and landing ops. This is the opposite of USN doctrine which embarked all aircraft on deck, and only struck them below for maintenance. USN CVs should have all the planes forward (jam-packed), or all the planes aft (also jam packed). So the IJN CVs would look more realistic without planes on deck unless you happen to be shooting while they are about to launch a strike (in which case it should be steaming into the wind at flank speed).

Back to escorts, I think it will be a tough task to find good info on their doctrine regarding the prosecution of submarine contacts. It's easier to look at the general scheme of things instead. In terms of mods, this would mean making the escorts act a little more like USN/RN DD/DEs (notably minus radar) , but reducing the number of such escorts. It is plain from Parillo's book, as well as Evans and Peatie's excellent book, Kaigun, that until 1943, there was zero attention to the submarine issue at all. There were literally 2 officers in the entire fleet tasked with escort organization, and that was in addition to other stuff on their plates. 2 part-time officers to conduct all navy organization regarding escort activity. Otherwise, escort duty was the bailiwick of the regional admirals. Taking DDs away from the Combined Fleet was not looked upon well.

Also, while not strictly an ASW issue, the japanese subsidized a "scrap and rebuild" policy of the merchant marine. This required 4000 ton ships that could make 13.5 knots. Many such ships were built. As a result, the merchant captains were against convoys themselves since moving at the speed of the slowest would often result in a group of 13.5 knot ships having to wait for a single slowpoke. Independant shipping was the result. Actually, another factor came into play there. the japanese couldn't offload ships very efficiently. So a convoy would saturate a port's ability to deal with the cargo. So cargo carriers tended to like showing up, unloading, then leaving without having to wait. They needed to, too. The japanese required more shipping than they actually had, it needed to be at sea as often as possible.

From the SH4 standpoint, I think that the radar needs fixing, the uber-intel of units radioed to the player needs to radically drop, and subs need to be forced to patrol around mostly for isolated ships. Note that in the main sea lanes (Japan-Truk, Japan-Singapore, and to a lesser extent Japan-Palau) the IJN would patrol. Not escort usually (before '44), but patrol.

03-27-07, 06:11 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The IJNAF would have used various seaplane units to provide air cover over island bases. This would be usually a Mavis (H6K) unit. These planes should be spotted as singletons. They might bomb and report. Meanwhile (early in the war) there would be little forthcoming in terms of air attack. Hunting subs is not like hunting a CV battle group. The sub is either destroyed in the bombing, or it dives, and the added aircraft are a wasted effort. So in a realistic H6K radius around a jap island, have a chance of a Mavis attack. Later there might be other floats (CA floats, notably). G4Ms (Betty) might also get tasked for this role sometimes as well, maybe G3Ms (Nell) as well. Seeign fighters anywhere but very close to land seems wrong, they would not have been used, it would be more of a random encounter for the fighters... "there we were, when we looked down and saw a sub. I made a hand signal to my chutai, and we strafed until the sub dived, then RTBed." The air side of SH4 is pretty silly right now, frankly. The IJNAF also did not have VS units as part of CV air wings. They had VB, VT, and VFs. They'd obviously likely fly some ASW patrols, but it would have to be with Kates or Vals since most Zeros didn't have radios. Regardless, I'd expect to almost always see any non-maritime patrol aircraft in 3s snce the fundamental unit of japanese aircraft organization was the 3-plane Chutai. On a slightly related note, the IJN CVs need a mod to remove the aircraft from the flight deck. IJN doctrine had all aircraft embarked below in the hanger spaces. PLanes were fueled, amred, and warmed up below decks (mostly). This allowed the flight deck to be clear for CAP take off and landing ops. This is the opposite of USN doctrine which embarked all aircraft on deck, and only struck them below for maintenance. USN CVs should have all the planes forward (jam-packed), or all the planes aft (also jam packed). So the IJN CVs would look more realistic without planes on deck unless you happen to be shooting while they are about to launch a strike (in which case it should be steaming into the wind at flank speed). Back to escorts, I think it will be a tough task to find good info on their doctrine regarding the prosecution of submarine contacts. It's easier to look at the general scheme of things instead. In terms of mods, this would mean making the escorts act a little more like USN/RN DD/DEs (notably minus radar) , but reducing the number of such escorts. It is plain from Parillo's book, as well as Evans and Peatie's excellent book, Kaigun, that until 1943, there was zero attention to the submarine issue at all. There were literally 2 officers in the entire fleet tasked with escort organization, and that was in addition to other stuff on their plates. 2 part-time officers to conduct all navy organization regarding escort activity. Otherwise, escort duty was the bailiwick of the regional admirals. Taking DDs away from the Combined Fleet was not looked upon well. Also, while not strictly an ASW issue, the japanese subsidized a "scrap and rebuild" policy of the merchant marine. This required 4000 ton ships that could make 13.5 knots. Many such ships were built. As a result, the merchant captains were against convoys themselves since moving at the speed of the slowest would often result in a group of 13.5 knot ships having to wait for a single slowpoke. Independant shipping was the result. Actually, another factor came into play there. the japanese couldn't offload ships very efficiently. So a convoy would saturate a port's ability to deal with the cargo. So cargo carriers tended to like showing up, unloading, then leaving without having to wait. They needed to, too. The japanese required more shipping than they actually had, it needed to be at sea as often as possible. From the SH4 standpoint, I think that the radar needs fixing, the uber-intel of units radioed to the player needs to radically drop, and subs need to be forced to patrol around mostly for isolated ships. Note that in the main sea lanes (Japan-Truk, Japan-Singapore, and to a lesser extent Japan-Palau) the IJN would patrol. Not escort usually (before '44), but patrol.