Auto TDC consistently misses (torps arrive late always)

Penelope_Grey · 03-27-07, 12:57 PM

Thanks for the help!

Torcher · 03-27-07, 01:42 PM

And here I thought I was just a really bad shot regardless of the white "X" and AOB line being damn near close to perfect with a manual setup.

I took akdavis' photo (thanx ak!) and superimposed CC's bearing tool to show the delta in degrees. Note that the bearing tool is not scaled properly for distance but it does show the degree marks. I also darkened up the marks and the torp for better legibility.

Looks like about a 3 degree variance at 1000 (TDC shows 1085 so close enough)

gnirtS · 03-27-07, 03:02 PM

I hadnt noticed in manual possibly because im not actually a good enough shot yet - i can hit a ship but not specific as to where.

It could be gyro angle or target speed or torpedo speed being slightly misread by the sims.

Has anyone confirmed it doesnt happen with Mk14s on low speed setting?

In a way it'd make more sense affecting both auto AND manual and could be the same bugin both.

Also, did anyone play with 1.0 and this to see if its in there too ?

Jungman · 03-27-07, 03:19 PM

For testing, use the simple setting.

The Torpedo_US.sim file shows the Mark 14 is using the correct speeds of 31 and 46 knots. The Range is in Meters 4100m and 8200m in hex code.

Since a meter is a bit longer by about 10% than yard, all scaling is off by about 10% maybe.

I was testing the run length time of torp M14 fast and slow, it seems as if the calculation only works if you use YARDS, as if the METER raw hex data distance is still being used. It does not quite match up.

I was plotting and measuring raw data off the map, no TDC stuff so to be independent. If the games ruler and scale are hardcoded with math calaculator for the TDC is scaled wrong..it would lead to lagging Mark14 torp???

I give a theory the values of 4100 and 8200 hex inside the file was not converted as the rest of the torpedo data speed. I did not think the actual maximum range would affect TDC result, unless somehow the Meter to Imperial math conversion equation became messed up from SH3.

akdavis · 03-27-07, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnirtS

I hadnt noticed in manual possibly because im not actually a good enough shot yet - i can hit a ship but not specific as to where.

It could be gyro angle or target speed or torpedo speed being slightly misread by the sims.

Has anyone confirmed it doesnt happen with Mk14s on low speed setting?

In a way it'd make more sense affecting both auto AND manual and could be the same bugin both.

Also, did anyone play with 1.0 and this to see if its in there too ?

As noted above, this does not effect the Mk. 14 at "low" speed. That hits dead on center with no apparent variations in the TDC's calculations other than the shift in gyro angle. This indicates there is no error in the TDC's target speed. The error seems to lie in the gyro angle compensation for the Mk. 14 at high speed, or the gyro is right, but the Mk.14 is not travelling at the correct speed.

Not sure about other marks of torpedo, not sure about v1.0.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungman

For testing, use the simple setting.

THe Torpedo_US.sim file shows the Mark 14 is using the correct speeds of 31 and 46 knots. The Range is in Meters 4100m and 8200m in hex code.

Since a meter is a bit longer by about 10% than yard, all scaling is off by about 10% maybe.

I was testing the run length time of torp M14 fast and slow, it seems as if the calculation only works if you use YARDS, as if the METER distance is stil being used. It does not quite match up.

I was plotiing and measuring raw data off the map, no TDC stuff so to be independent. If the games ruler and scale or hardcoded math calaculator for the TDC is scaled wrong..it would lead to lagging Mark14 torp???

But this would cause errors at both high and low speed. In fact, the error at low speed would be even worse, I would think. I know the .sim file says 46 knots, but how do we know that is what is actually happening in the game?

AVGWarhawk · 03-27-07, 03:39 PM

I always use low speed on the torps. I'm just used to this function. At any rate, I do not have issues with the TDC using slow on the torps. Usually bad calculation on target speeds get me in trouble.

akdavis · 03-27-07, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I always use low speed on the torps. I'm just used to this function. At any rate, I do not have issues with the TDC using slow on the torps. Usually bad calculation on target speeds get me in trouble.

Well, then that would explain...

Quote:

Well, ok, in manual mode the TDC works fine for me.

AVGWarhawk · 03-27-07, 03:53 PM

Give slow a try. Seriously, I have no issues with slow setting. The only time I use fast is for warships. Also, I get into 1500 feet or closer and this alleviates any small miscalculation on speed. It is just the way I skipper my sub when attacking

Jungman · 03-27-07, 03:50 PM

I measure my boat moving at 11 knots left to right, the time in seconds to travel 1 nautical mile = 2025.37 yards. Yet I swear it was only 1835 something by using the in game map ruler scale. I am using the Imperial setting in gameplay.

Guess what? 1 nm =~ 1835 meters. is the game scale for Meter and Yards correct?

Maybe slow torpedo error is less affect than a fast one in proportion.

Another experiment, I set the Range in the attack map and the map will show how much time it will take the torpedo to travel that long green line (it is displayed). As a second point to measure I time how long it goes until it runs out and stops at it maximum range.

I find that the numbers are off?? by about 7%.

One question is do the slow torpedo hit 'exactly' dead center using Auto? The error should still show up, but for one not as bad since it is moving slower relative to Targe Speed. In the calculation the error is reduced more than you think, but it should still be there somewhat.

Razman23 · 03-28-07, 05:57 PM

Can someone explain to me what the line that comes out of the front of the sub represents? I know the white X and white line represents the target and direction of travel but I have yet to figure out what that other line is for. Does it show a acceptable firing solution or what?

I am using 100% realism so I dont get all that other info shown.

(Thanx Big T, for letting me borrow your image for my question

)

tommyk · 03-28-07, 06:01 PM

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

Razman23 · 03-28-07, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyk

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

That is what I thought as well but as you can see by the images posted on this thread, the fish and line do not match. I even checked it on my pc to see what it does and its the same way.

tommyk · 03-28-07, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razman23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyk

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

That is what I thought as well but as you can see by the images posted on this thread, the fish and line do not match. I even checked it on my pc to see what it does and its the same way.

I believe there is definatly something wrong with TDC and/or torpedo settings in SH4 but I dont know what it is... mk14 low speed seems to work best for me...

akdavis · 03-28-07, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razman23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyk

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

That is what I thought as well but as you can see by the images posted on this thread, the fish and line do not match. I even checked it on my pc to see what it does and its the same way.

The light green line is the gyro angle (and expected torpedo path with no spread) generated by the TDC. The dark green line is the spread offset applied to the generated gyro angle (if they merge, spread is 0 deg.) and will be the expected path of the current torpedo at launch.

The generated gyro angle is continuously updated by the TDC. Unless you turn the TDC off the second the torpedo is launched, the gyro angle line will not match the track of a torpedo that has already left the tube as it is updating for the next shot.

Razman23 · 03-29-07, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akdavis

The light green line is the gyro angle (and expected torpedo path with no spread) generated by the TDC. The dark green line is the spread offset applied to the generated gyro angle (if they merge, spread is 0 deg.) and will be the expected path of the current torpedo at launch.

The generated gyro angle is continuously updated by the TDC. Unless you turn the TDC off the second the torpedo is launched, the gyro angle line will not match the track of a torpedo that has already left the tube as it is updating for the next shot.

So shouldnt the light green line actually line up on the white X then?

It would make sense that the light green line hit the X and confirm you have a good firing solution. Dontcha think?

Unless the 'bug' causes the line not to match up.

03-27-07, 12:57 PM	#1
Penelope_Grey Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,893 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the help! __________________ I SURVIVED THE FIRST EVER SUBSIM WEREWOLF HUNT - and... I actually won the game for the humans too!

03-27-07, 01:42 PM	#2
Torcher Seaman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Creedmor Posts: 41 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	And here I thought I was just a really bad shot regardless of the white "X" and AOB line being damn near close to perfect with a manual setup. I took akdavis' photo (thanx ak!) and superimposed CC's bearing tool to show the delta in degrees. Note that the bearing tool is not scaled properly for distance but it does show the degree marks. I also darkened up the marks and the torp for better legibility. Looks like about a 3 degree variance at 1000 (TDC shows 1085 so close enough) __________________ I think the lifeguard at the Gene Pool is on extended break

03-27-07, 03:39 PM	#6
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,303 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	I always use low speed on the torps. I'm just used to this function. At any rate, I do not have issues with the TDC using slow on the torps. Usually bad calculation on target speeds get me in trouble. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-27-07, 03:53 PM	#8
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,303 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Give slow a try. Seriously, I have no issues with slow setting. The only time I use fast is for warships. Also, I get into 1500 feet or closer and this alleviates any small miscalculation on speed. It is just the way I skipper my sub when attacking __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-28-07, 05:57 PM	#10
Razman23 Engineer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 217 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Can someone explain to me what the line that comes out of the front of the sub represents? I know the white X and white line represents the target and direction of travel but I have yet to figure out what that other line is for. Does it show a acceptable firing solution or what? I am using 100% realism so I dont get all that other info shown. (Thanx Big T, for letting me borrow your image for my question ) __________________ Raz === "Wir haben einen LKW versenkt!" Kptlt.. W.M. Kraus U-112 2nd Flotilla Brest === "We sunk a truck!" Captain Matt Sherman USS Sea Tiger Cavite Naval Yards Phillippine Islands

03-27-07, 03:02 PM	#3
gnirtS Officer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South Wales, UK Posts: 237 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I hadnt noticed in manual possibly because im not actually a good enough shot yet - i can hit a ship but not specific as to where. It could be gyro angle or target speed or torpedo speed being slightly misread by the sims. Has anyone confirmed it doesnt happen with Mk14s on low speed setting? In a way it'd make more sense affecting both auto AND manual and could be the same bugin both. Also, did anyone play with 1.0 and this to see if its in there too ?

03-27-07, 03:19 PM	#4
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	For testing, use the simple setting. The Torpedo_US.sim file shows the Mark 14 is using the correct speeds of 31 and 46 knots. The Range is in Meters 4100m and 8200m in hex code. Since a meter is a bit longer by about 10% than yard, all scaling is off by about 10% maybe. I was testing the run length time of torp M14 fast and slow, it seems as if the calculation only works if you use YARDS, as if the METER raw hex data distance is still being used. It does not quite match up. I was plotting and measuring raw data off the map, no TDC stuff so to be independent. If the games ruler and scale are hardcoded with math calaculator for the TDC is scaled wrong..it would lead to lagging Mark14 torp??? I give a theory the values of 4100 and 8200 hex inside the file was not converted as the rest of the torpedo data speed. I did not think the actual maximum range would affect TDC result, unless somehow the Meter to Imperial math conversion equation became messed up from SH3.

03-27-07, 03:50 PM	#9
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I measure my boat moving at 11 knots left to right, the time in seconds to travel 1 nautical mile = 2025.37 yards. Yet I swear it was only 1835 something by using the in game map ruler scale. I am using the Imperial setting in gameplay. Guess what? 1 nm =~ 1835 meters. is the game scale for Meter and Yards correct? Maybe slow torpedo error is less affect than a fast one in proportion. Another experiment, I set the Range in the attack map and the map will show how much time it will take the torpedo to travel that long green line (it is displayed). As a second point to measure I time how long it goes until it runs out and stops at it maximum range. I find that the numbers are off?? by about 7%. One question is do the slow torpedo hit 'exactly' dead center using Auto? The error should still show up, but for one not as bad since it is moving slower relative to Targe Speed. In the calculation the error is reduced more than you think, but it should still be there somewhat.

03-28-07, 06:01 PM	#11
tommyk Watch Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Near U-995 (Kiel, Germany) Posts: 337 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings... __________________ Gute Jagd und fette Beute!