Active Sonar + Marine Life

[tycho102]

per the news item on the beached whale --

I am of the mind that we've got to stop using active sonar, or at least at the power levels necessary for sub detection. Obviously this puts operator training into a questionable position, because it's dozens of diesel boats we're going to have to defend against (if anything).

I really do think we've got dolphins and whales with either physical trauma or sensory confusion, as a result of sonar use. I've suspected this for a few years but I'm at the point where something needs to be figured out. I honestly don't trust the Navy to do an apolitical study of the issue, and there are too many "independent" universities and corporations who are not so independent as they profess, so I have doubts about the ability for an extensive investigation in open-water.


I think it's time we developed simulation abilities such as we currently do with nuclear warheads: computer simulations rather than actual detonation tests.

[down and out]

Have a read of this

http://www.nrdc.org/wildlife/marine/sonar.asp

Why is it that animal lives are more important than human lives?

Here is an alternate scenerio: When these 'high powered' SONARs are in use its b/c a target was detected.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Why is it that animal lives are more important than human lives?

They aren't. But I think the point is, they are part of an eco chain - they die, we die. Its the way it works, so I think some consideration needs to be taken to make sure we have a healthy planet.

-S

[ASWnut101]

It's a whale! Do we eat them? No.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

It's a whale! Do we eat them? No.

SOme people do! I'd like to try it once, but only once - just to see!

Anyway, they keep another thing in check - like possibly overpopulation of Kril where the kril might over populate and block sunlight for some plant that feeds some other fish...and down the chain it goes until the ocean dies out, which in turn starts killing bears for example since there is no salmon, (and no fisheries for us too!) and the bears allow deer to over populate that eat all the grass and kill off something else - its one massive chain reaction type deal - you need all species to survive so that the chain is kept in place.

-S

[ASWnut101]

I find that killing off a few whales will destroy the planet a very poor possibility, yet infront of Al Gore's dream.



Whale meat does look alright, though. Maby I'll try it one day.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

I find that killing off a few whales will destroy the planet a very poor possibility, yet infront of Al Gore's dream.



Whale meat does look alright, though. Maby I'll try it one day.

AL Gore is whacked. My opinion. Not as harsh as he makes things out to be, but still, it would have an effect - not one whale, not 2, but thousands yes.

[ASWnut101]

I think that the rate that we kill whales with sonar is lower than their birth rate. To date I haven't seen any ill effects of killing them. They don't need to just be killed off for nothing, but a sonar ping death I don't find needless. They just got in the way.

[Drebbel]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Here is an alternate scenerio: When these 'high powered' SONARs are in use its b/c a target was detected.

Target ? Or the navy using their equipment and exercising on a contact they found ?

The way I see it is that if you are not going to attack it it was probably not a target after all and there was (afterwards) no need at all to use that sonar.

Any navy that has these systems which have such a peace time effect on species that are so high on the list of animals the general public loves should be really worried and make a huge effort in searching for alternatives.

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Target ? Or the navy using their equipment and exercising on a contact they found ?

The way I see it is that if you are not going to attack it it was probably not a target after all and there was (afterwards) no need at all to use that sonar.

Every navy that has these systems which have such an effect on species that are so high on the list of animals the general public loves should be really worried and make a huge effort in searching for alternatives.

I apologize if I should have used the word 'contact' ISO target. I'm a SH3 guy and everything is a target.

As far as the plausability I don't think the scenerio is out of reason. Wasn't it a couple of months back that a report about a Chinese sub was alleged to have creaped into a US Carrier Battle Group? The reports of the Russian subforce being a wreck doesn't preclude the sortie of at least a few boats probing US defences.
China could also be probing.

I thought that tactics precluded the use of active SONAR under most situations. Letting the contact know they have been detected seams like one of those situations. No one can tell how long the contact was monitored for its passive signature B4 they were pinged. Its not called the 'silent service' for nothing.

As you know the book 'Blind Mans Bluff' is illuminating as to the deception inherent in sub sevice.

[Ishmael]

I would be interested if there are any marine life surveys taken from the early 1960's through the early 1980's. That was really the early heyday of high-powered active sonars like the SQS-26 models. There weren't any mass dolphin or whale kills from that time as I remember. The reason I keep hearing for such kills seems to be bacterial infections caused by compromised immune systems. I've never heard of acoustics being the cause of that.

[leeclose]

Can i point out a small problem here 90% plus of all sonar work is done passive. IE no emissions so i would love to see where the heck there getting there info from in all my years in Subs i only ever saw us go active once Reason*****classified*** and skimmers er cough surface ships prefer to list passive as well only real active stuff are dipping sona boays from those pesky bean cans with rotors and as loud and annoying as they are i dont see em frying a whale

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Passive sonar is done extensively in the US Navy, I believe, because for a long time they had an acoustical superiority over their main prey - Russians. Most of the time you get to hear them, so why let them know you are hearing them?

If you have aren't sure of an acoustic advantage, your use of active will go up, hoping to create a less penetrable "buffer zone" - even if you tell the target where you are, hopefully it is harder for him to get within X miles, so at least you have some space to play with when he attacks.

With subs inching closer and through the background noise level of the ocean, active searching (not just occasional rangefinding) will become more common. You can play games with signal processing for awhile, but eventually there's just no signal that stands out above the randomness. At that point what's left is to hit your own sound waves into the water.

[SUBMAN1]

One thing I would like to point out - this is a minor problem as compared to everything else we are doing to damage the planet. Some of the energy spent here could be better served down in the Amazon or something.

-S