What about SH4 improvements that really count?

03-01-07, 11:12 PM

Ok, I've heard that SH4 will have prettier graphics, prettier graphics, prettier graphics, prettier graphics, and prettier graphics. To make my point short, the focus has been mostly on improved graphics (plus some talk of UI, lifeboats, rescue missions, and more radio traffic). But what about improvements that really count, such as gameplay? I am talking about improved ai, improved realism, small and important gameplay details, etc. There has been very little mention of this that I have seen. I know that pretty graphics sell games, but graphics alone do not make a game enjoyable. It appears that the developers may have put too much time and effort focusing on pretty external graphics, while possibly neglecting important gameplay features. I can't say for sure because I don't have SH4 yet, and I hope I'm wrong. Playing the game using free roam camera isn't exactly important if it sacrifices realistic gameplay development. Silent Hunter is supposed to be a simulator, not a first person shooter. If SH4 were to be released so it could be easily modded, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned. But as I am a SH3 modder, I can say that there are too many important things hard-coded (such as ai behavior) in SH3. And I'm fairly sure SH4 will be released the same way. I guess all we can hope for is that they will release the SDK for SH3 so we can fix it right.

03-01-07, 11:30 PM

I guess what I was trying to say in my first post is for everyone not to get too excited before we actually get our hands on the game. SH3 was and is a great game, but there were some big disappointments after it's half-finished release. Hopefully SH4 will be released more... ummm ... complete. Will SH4 be all fluff and no filling? We'll see...

Torplexed · 03-01-07, 11:47 PM

Only time will tell.

flyingdane · 03-02-07, 12:07 AM

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on.

03-02-07, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdane

IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on.

I am starting to get concerned, because I am once again seeing some worrying and familiar signs in the pre-release of SH4 that were the same signs in other previously released sims that ended up being majorly unfinished let downs. By this I mean mostly the pre-release focus and excitement on new, improved, pretty graphics and crickets chirping silence regarding improved ai and realism features. But I hope you're right.

flyingdane · 03-02-07, 12:34 AM

Well the devs know that to top SH3 there has to be more then just looks or it will not sell as well.

Captain Krunch · 03-02-07, 12:34 AM

The number one improvement to me is that the game is American subs back in the Pacific theater, just like the original Silent Hunter. No offense to those who prefer the German side of things, but I'm a huge fan of the American sub campaign, so SH4 is a very welcome effort to me.

In regards to the comments about prettier graphics, I say bring it on! Since I did not play either SH2 or SH3, the graphics we've been seeing in recent screenshots and videos, which are lightyears ahead of what SH1 had, are raising my excitment level tremendously. And to confirm this to myself, I just finished playing about an hour of SH1 via DosBox. My goodness, the graphics are bad. Sprites for ships, cartoon clouds and waves, and SVGA resolution (stretched on a widescreen LCD no less). UGH! I cannot wait to see my sub and the enemy ships in 3D; it's going to be fun.

As for gameplay, I can't imagine it being much worse than SH1, and that's still a very fun game, so if it ends up being as good as SH1, I'll be happy. From what I've read, it'll pretty much have all the gameplay features one would need to simulate a WWII sub in the Pacific. I've ready many biographies and books about the American sub force, and have many expectations of what a proper sub sim should be, yet I have no worries that Silent Hunter 4 will miss the boat (Pun intended).

Still, in the end, I'm getting a bit bothered by all this negativity. I don't think it's very proper to damn, or praise, the game before it's released. Let's give the developers the opportunity to succeed or fail on the merits of the final product, not screenshots or videos of pre-release builds.

03-02-07, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krunch

The number one improvement to me is that the game is American subs back in the Pacific theater, just like the original Silent Hunter. No offense to those who prefer the German side of things, but I'm a huge fan of the American sub campaign, so SH4 is a very welcome effort to me.

In regards to the comments about prettier graphics, I say bring it on! Since I did not play either SH2 or SH3, the graphics we've been seeing in recent screenshots and videos, which are lightyears ahead of what SH1 had, are raising my excitment level tremendously. And to confirm this to myself, I just finished playing about an hour of SH1 via DosBox. My goodness, the graphics are bad. Sprites for ships, cartoon clouds and waves, and SVGA resolution (stretched on a widescreen LCD no less). UGH! I cannot wait to see my sub and the enemy ships in 3D; it's going to be fun.

As for gameplay, I can't imagine it being much worse than SH1, and that's still a very fun game, so if it ends up being as good as SH1, I'll be happy. From what I've read, it'll pretty much have all the gameplay features one would need to simulate a WWII sub in the Pacific. I've ready many biographies and books about the American sub force, and have many expectations of what a proper sub sim should be, yet I have no worries that Silent Hunter 4 will miss the boat (Pun intended).

Still, in the end, I'm getting a bit bothered by all this negativity. I don't think it's very proper to damn, or praise, the game before it's released. Let's give the developers the opportunity to succeed or fail on the merits of the final product, not screenshots or videos of pre-release builds.

Good post. But I am not 'damning' SH4 before it 's released. All I am saying is that I am getting worried with all the focus on prettier graphics and very little mention of realism and gameplay improvements. I have followed a lot of pre-released sims that were released unfinished and had poor gameplay due to too much focus on developing pretty graphics. And I hate to say this, but it looks like SH4 is following the same path. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. But the only thing that saved SH3 was the modding community. But there are limits to what modders can fix.

THE_MASK · 03-02-07, 02:18 AM

After SH4 where is there to go in the series . Nowhere , so release the SDK and the subsim community can mod SH4 and SH3 and the game will last and sell for years .

The Noob · 03-02-07, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sober

After SH4 where is there to go in the series

Modern times like dangerous waters? :hmm:

THE_MASK · 03-02-07, 03:02 AM

An add-on for SH4 to complete the world and include germany and britain would be nice . Getting back to the thread , i read on a review how the AI is now Quote " super intelligent". or something to that effect .

Aimbot · 03-02-07, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krunch

Still, in the end, I'm getting a bit bothered by all this negativity. I don't think it's very proper to damn, or praise, the game before it's released. Let's give the developers the opportunity to succeed or fail on the merits of the final product, not screenshots or videos of pre-release builds.

This happens on every forum for a sequel to a video game series. The OP is being perfectly reasonable, but there is a martyr complex that a vocal minority of any long standing video game series always will have. I don't see why this game would be any different.
"Why doesn't [X] have [Y]?! Everyone wants [Y]! They're just dumbing down gameplay and ratcheting up the graphics to snag the main stream gamer! I'll never spend my money on this crap, but I'm still the one and only authority of the quality of the game. If you buy the product you have personally offended me and have no taste."

They've mentioned the interface more often than I could say, and they've supposedly included many more ships than there were in III. It looks like the atmosphere within the sub has improved, we've seen screens of crew members knocked off their feet and the crew management is improved, as is damage control. It looks promising to me.

Capt.LoneRanger · 03-02-07, 03:31 AM

Well, to be honest it is not like the eyecandy is just a gimmik for this game. Considering the hardcoded limited visibility of 5km in SH3, I think this "eyecandy" shown in SH4 is more than just to please the eye.

Besides that, the screenies show different other things, that are not pure eyecandy: Very detailed damage-modell with different system and repair-queue with priorities, completely reworked crew management, functional systems modelled and readable from the interior view, even without actually jumping to the station, ability to participate in historical engagements and landing operations, reassigning of missions while at sea, ability to follow not mission-critical information to earn some extra points (e.g. for rescuing aircrews, even if not assigned to that task, when operating in a combat or airstrike-area), different mission-objectives, refuel and rearm at sea,....

I agree, that I'd very much like to see the US submarine groups of 4-5 move and engage together, to hunt down and engage the famous and most advanced Japanese submarines, like the I400-the famous submarine aircraft-carrier, etc... and also that I'm wondering if the crew really stands talking on the deck, while their ship is torn in two, etc.
But then, we also have little information on the positive side. In one of the previews it was stated they rescued a crew from a sunk ship and got the credits, even if it was no mission goal, for example.

There's just to little information, yet, to really have a reason to panic.

Aimbot · 03-02-07, 04:26 AM

Be careful what you wish for regarding the crew of ships. The biggest advantage this game has in terms of performance is that it focuses on a few large and relatively static objects. They move, but little on the ship actually does. You animate a dozen or so sailors on a ship in a complex way and the framerate won't drop noticably, but what happens when you run into a large convoy. Suddenly not only is your computer projecting a highly dynamic backdrop, the sea, and a series of eplosions and activity, but also a hundred or so individual sailers running around on the decks. And they all have to change behavior whn something happens. And they all have to have seperate actions and paths, so it doesn't look like a coreographed Broadway musical. And so on, and so on.

Reece · 03-02-07, 04:28 AM

I'm sure that SH4 will have improved gameplay, such as sensors, the issues with uber dd's & dc's dropping with pinpoint accuracy (even in 1939), sonar, etc are problems that I would like fixed, another is when your TC drops back to 1x your sub has been bombed then the WO says "Aircraft", no kidding! down I go!!:rotfl:There have been so many complaints with this sort of thing that I'm sure the problems would have been addressed, especially since the engine is basically the same.

Cheers.

03-01-07, 11:12 PM	#1
nvdrifter Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	What about SH4 improvements that really count? Ok, I've heard that SH4 will have prettier graphics, prettier graphics, prettier graphics, prettier graphics, and prettier graphics. To make my point short, the focus has been mostly on improved graphics (plus some talk of UI, lifeboats, rescue missions, and more radio traffic). But what about improvements that really count, such as gameplay? I am talking about improved ai, improved realism, small and important gameplay details, etc. There has been very little mention of this that I have seen. I know that pretty graphics sell games, but graphics alone do not make a game enjoyable. It appears that the developers may have put too much time and effort focusing on pretty external graphics, while possibly neglecting important gameplay features. I can't say for sure because I don't have SH4 yet, and I hope I'm wrong. Playing the game using free roam camera isn't exactly important if it sacrifices realistic gameplay development. Silent Hunter is supposed to be a simulator, not a first person shooter. If SH4 were to be released so it could be easily modded, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned. But as I am a SH3 modder, I can say that there are too many important things hard-coded (such as ai behavior) in SH3. And I'm fairly sure SH4 will be released the same way. I guess all we can hope for is that they will release the SDK for SH3 so we can fix it right.

03-01-07, 11:47 PM	#3
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Only time will tell. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

03-02-07, 12:07 AM	#4
flyingdane Weps Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 355 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	IT will have big shoes to fill but i think SH4 will top SH3 in more ways than graphics....Like better AI, better interface, better codeing and so on. __________________ It denos't mtater waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, it's olny iprmoatnt taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelms.Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

03-02-07, 12:34 AM	#6
flyingdane Weps Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 355 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Well the devs know that to top SH3 there has to be more then just looks or it will not sell as well. __________________ It denos't mtater waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, it's olny iprmoatnt taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelms.Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

03-02-07, 03:31 AM	#13
Capt.LoneRanger Bosun Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 65 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well, to be honest it is not like the eyecandy is just a gimmik for this game. Considering the hardcoded limited visibility of 5km in SH3, I think this "eyecandy" shown in SH4 is more than just to please the eye. Besides that, the screenies show different other things, that are not pure eyecandy: Very detailed damage-modell with different system and repair-queue with priorities, completely reworked crew management, functional systems modelled and readable from the interior view, even without actually jumping to the station, ability to participate in historical engagements and landing operations, reassigning of missions while at sea, ability to follow not mission-critical information to earn some extra points (e.g. for rescuing aircrews, even if not assigned to that task, when operating in a combat or airstrike-area), different mission-objectives, refuel and rearm at sea,.... I agree, that I'd very much like to see the US submarine groups of 4-5 move and engage together, to hunt down and engage the famous and most advanced Japanese submarines, like the I400-the famous submarine aircraft-carrier, etc... and also that I'm wondering if the crew really stands talking on the deck, while their ship is torn in two, etc. But then, we also have little information on the positive side. In one of the previews it was stated they rescued a crew from a sunk ship and got the credits, even if it was no mission goal, for example. There's just to little information, yet, to really have a reason to panic. __________________ Greets, Capt.LoneRanger

03-01-07, 11:30 PM	#2
nvdrifter Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I guess what I was trying to say in my first post is for everyone not to get too excited before we actually get our hands on the game. SH3 was and is a great game, but there were some big disappointments after it's half-finished release. Hopefully SH4 will be released more... ummm ... complete. Will SH4 be all fluff and no filling? We'll see...

03-02-07, 12:34 AM	#7
Captain Krunch Mate Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 58 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	The number one improvement to me is that the game is American subs back in the Pacific theater, just like the original Silent Hunter. No offense to those who prefer the German side of things, but I'm a huge fan of the American sub campaign, so SH4 is a very welcome effort to me. In regards to the comments about prettier graphics, I say bring it on! Since I did not play either SH2 or SH3, the graphics we've been seeing in recent screenshots and videos, which are lightyears ahead of what SH1 had, are raising my excitment level tremendously. And to confirm this to myself, I just finished playing about an hour of SH1 via DosBox. My goodness, the graphics are bad. Sprites for ships, cartoon clouds and waves, and SVGA resolution (stretched on a widescreen LCD no less). UGH! I cannot wait to see my sub and the enemy ships in 3D; it's going to be fun. As for gameplay, I can't imagine it being much worse than SH1, and that's still a very fun game, so if it ends up being as good as SH1, I'll be happy. From what I've read, it'll pretty much have all the gameplay features one would need to simulate a WWII sub in the Pacific. I've ready many biographies and books about the American sub force, and have many expectations of what a proper sub sim should be, yet I have no worries that Silent Hunter 4 will miss the boat (Pun intended). Still, in the end, I'm getting a bit bothered by all this negativity. I don't think it's very proper to damn, or praise, the game before it's released. Let's give the developers the opportunity to succeed or fail on the merits of the final product, not screenshots or videos of pre-release builds.

03-02-07, 02:18 AM	#9
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	After SH4 where is there to go in the series . Nowhere , so release the SDK and the subsim community can mod SH4 and SH3 and the game will last and sell for years .

03-02-07, 03:02 AM	#11
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	An add-on for SH4 to complete the world and include germany and britain would be nice . Getting back to the thread , i read on a review how the AI is now Quote " super intelligent". or something to that effect .

03-02-07, 04:26 AM	#14
Aimbot Medic Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 160 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Be careful what you wish for regarding the crew of ships. The biggest advantage this game has in terms of performance is that it focuses on a few large and relatively static objects. They move, but little on the ship actually does. You animate a dozen or so sailors on a ship in a complex way and the framerate won't drop noticably, but what happens when you run into a large convoy. Suddenly not only is your computer projecting a highly dynamic backdrop, the sea, and a series of eplosions and activity, but also a hundred or so individual sailers running around on the decks. And they all have to change behavior whn something happens. And they all have to have seperate actions and paths, so it doesn't look like a coreographed Broadway musical. And so on, and so on.

03-02-07, 04:28 AM	#15
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 34,701 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	I'm sure that SH4 will have improved gameplay, such as sensors, the issues with uber dd's & dc's dropping with pinpoint accuracy (even in 1939), sonar, etc are problems that I would like fixed, another is when your TC drops back to 1x your sub has been bombed then the WO says "Aircraft", no kidding! down I go!!:rotfl:There have been so many complaints with this sort of thing that I'm sure the problems would have been addressed, especially since the engine is basically the same. Cheers. __________________ *Sub captains go down with their ship!*