Gato vs. VIIC - Page 2

flyingdane · 02-06-07, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

Weren't the VIICs pretty much built just for war and nothing else? What I mean is, there were very little comforts on the VIICs, they were war vessels, period, and not meant to serve in the fleet a really long time. Isn't that right?

Well I think it's true that the reason Germans excluded many comforts was that they wouldn't sacrifice any performance for that!

That said, I think there again is the difference in philosophy - American boats were built for longer fleet operations, with the comforts accounted for.

Mind you, some German boats still served in various Allied navies for years after the war...

Well Said

NEON DEON · 02-06-07, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdane

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

Weren't the VIICs pretty much built just for war and nothing else? What I mean is, there were very little comforts on the VIICs, they were war vessels, period, and not meant to serve in the fleet a really long time. Isn't that right?

Well I think it's true that the reason Germans excluded many comforts was that they wouldn't sacrifice any performance for that!

That said, I think there again is the difference in philosophy - American boats were built for longer fleet operations, with the comforts accounted for.

Mind you, some German boats still served in various Allied navies for years after the war...

Well Said

and modified Balaos served in the US Navy into the Sixties.

flyingdane · 02-06-07, 02:15 AM

The US Fleet sub during ww2 was the best submarine for long range patrols any where, bar-non".. there were none better in the whole world...(Truth)

CCIP · 02-06-07, 02:23 AM

And let's not forget that some Tench class boats (still the same essential design) are still in service! Example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cutlass_%28SS-478%29

Fat Bhoy Tim · 02-06-07, 06:58 AM

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Originally Posted by flintlock

Quote:

I'm still in love with the laundry facility, shower and ice cream machine.

Don't forget those linoleum floors.

If I had to choose to skipper one, I'd take that superior German engineering in a heartbeat!

Superior German (over) engineering is one of the major things that lost them the war mind you.

DanCanovas · 02-06-07, 09:38 AM

German boats were well constructed enabling them the operate deeper and more resistant to damage. US boats on the other hand were able to operate for longer periods and were equipped with this in mind.

flintlock · 02-06-07, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bhoy Tim

Superior German (over) engineering is one of the major things that lost them the war mind you.

High quality engineering is a German trait in general. Though I agree, insofar as the war effort was concerened, their penchant for excellency in engineering dealt them a massive and irreparable blow. This was true with most all equipment Germany designed and manufactured for the war. This was definitely one time where the quality over quantity mantra hurt them.

Fat Bhoy Tim · 02-06-07, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintlock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bhoy Tim

Superior German (over) engineering is one of the major things that lost them the war mind you.

High quality engineering is a German trait in general. Though I agree, insofar as the war effort was concerened, their penchant for excellency in engineering dealt them a massive and irreparable blow. This was true with most all equipment Germany designed and manufactured for the war. This was definitely one time where the quality over quantity mantra hurt them.

Indeed it is. And it's usually often not required, still the ridiculously expensive maintenance makes BMW half their profits - so there's method to the madness.

Onkel Neal · 02-06-07, 12:48 PM

I can't argue with that, the Germans have always been excellent engineers.

flintlock · 02-06-07, 12:49 PM

For "The Ultimate Driving Experience," I don't mind paying a little extra. Sure, I've had to pay a premium on the odd part, but my experience overall has been great. Their automobiles are a joy to own (and even more fun to drive) and they enjoy a healthy resale value.

dean_acheson · 02-06-07, 12:52 PM

I am not sure that VIIC and GATO is fair, maybe VIIC and a Balao is closer to being an even comparison, both include wartime improvements.

flintlock · 02-06-07, 01:00 PM

Quote:

I am not sure that VIIC and GATO is fair, maybe VIIC and a Balao

How about the GATO vs XXI?

/tongue planted firmly in cheek

Iron Budokan · 02-06-07, 01:43 PM

I only meant a comparison between the two subs from the standpoint the Gato was the main sub in the Pacific and the VIIC the main sub in the Atlantic. I didn't mean so much which was the better sub, but which was best for its TO. My fault for not being clear, but I'm enjoying the thread anyway. Thanks, guys!

CCIP · 02-06-07, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintlock

Quote:

I am not sure that VIIC and GATO is fair, maybe VIIC and a Balao

How about the GATO vs XXI?

/tongue planted firmly in cheek

Haha.

How about XXI vs. Guppy then? :p
(not quite fair, of course, since Guppy was in many ways an upgrade based on what's been learned from the XXI)

U-Dog · 02-06-07, 04:29 PM

One thing not mentioned yet. The difference between the ASW capabilities of thier respective enemies. I suspect the Gato's would have had a tougher time if Japanese ASW was as good as Allied. Thoughts?

And of course the Fleet submarine wasn't used in the way it was envisioned at the time of its design...

i do agree that its apples and oranges but that doesn't make this discussion any less interesting, and it does make me think more about all these wonderful boats!

Cheers,

02-06-07, 02:15 AM	#18
flyingdane Weps Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 355 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	The US Fleet sub during ww2 was the best submarine for long range patrols any where, bar-non".. there were none better in the whole world...(Truth) __________________ It denos't mtater waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, it's olny iprmoatnt taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelms.Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

02-06-07, 02:23 AM	#19
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	And let's not forget that some Tench class boats (still the same essential design) are still in service! Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cutlass_%28SS-478%29 __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

02-06-07, 09:38 AM	#21
DanCanovas Grey Wolf Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 778 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	German boats were well constructed enabling them the operate deeper and more resistant to damage. US boats on the other hand were able to operate for longer periods and were equipped with this in mind. __________________

02-06-07, 12:48 PM	#24
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	I can't argue with that, the Germans have always been excellent engineers. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

02-06-07, 01:43 PM	#28
Iron Budokan Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1,778 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I only meant a comparison between the two subs from the standpoint the Gato was the main sub in the Pacific and the VIIC the main sub in the Atlantic. I didn't mean so much which was the better sub, but which was best for its TO. My fault for not being clear, but I'm enjoying the thread anyway. Thanks, guys! __________________ "You will take on England wherever you find her ships, and you will break her power at sea." --Iron Coffins, Herbert A. Werner http://kennethmarkhoover.com

02-06-07, 12:49 PM	#25
flintlock Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,177 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	For "The Ultimate Driving Experience," I don't mind paying a little extra. Sure, I've had to pay a premium on the odd part, but my experience overall has been great. Their automobiles are a joy to own (and even more fun to drive) and they enjoy a healthy resale value.

02-06-07, 12:52 PM	#26
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	I am not sure that VIIC and GATO is fair, maybe VIIC and a Balao is closer to being an even comparison, both include wartime improvements.

02-06-07, 04:29 PM	#30
U-Dog Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 111 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	One thing not mentioned yet. The difference between the ASW capabilities of thier respective enemies. I suspect the Gato's would have had a tougher time if Japanese ASW was as good as Allied. Thoughts? And of course the Fleet submarine wasn't used in the way it was envisioned at the time of its design... i do agree that its apples and oranges but that doesn't make this discussion any less interesting, and it does make me think more about all these wonderful boats! Cheers,