Enigma: Rising Tide (gold edition)

[Enigma]

I'll also add this observation....

Once I got SH3, I put Enigma:RT away. The SH3 boys simply had a bigger budget and made a more advanced game. But today, after having both games for a long time, I'd play Rising tide. Why? Because it actually has a replay factor. To me, SH3 got old. It took a while to get there, but I dont find it that fun anymore. Drive around, spot a ship, sink it, drive around, spot a convoy, blah blah blah. It gets old. I stil love the game and im sure id revisit it, but Rising Tide has many more ways to play, options, platforms, and missions. Not just every mission being the same. (As in, go out and see if you find anything worth sinking.)

Oh, and noone who plays DW should be bitching about graphics.

[Theta Sigma]

If you have a copy of SH3 and DW, then I don't see how you could pass over ERT. It's still one of the best.

[GlobalExplorer]

EAST, you are right that when ERT came out SHIII was 1-2 years off and that's why I bought ERT, and so did probably many, many others. I kind of enjoyed the demo and had read many good reviews. It was only later that I realized its arcadishness, and that most of the good reviews were written by the same 50 people.

After a few months and installing all updates I began to hate the game, but not because of the graphics. I think the graphics were really good, and the game was all in all very athmospheric. It was the gameplay that brought ERT down. I've never seen anything like it before - an arcade game disguised as a computer simulation, in a way that I so much wanted to like it but couldn't.

It is interesting to read that you believe to have revived the genre - thinking about it, that might be true. Very sad that you missed a great opportunity to create the new AOTD. The point of time was perfect, with AOTD almost 10 years old, the community literally starving, you just released the wrong product. And then, strangely, came the big UBI and showed you indy guys how to create a niche product and a classic.

Btw EAST, did you ever play SHIII with the newest mods? Wasn't it a big mistake to deny the users any kind of modding capabilities? Because on restrospect ERT with mods could have been a much different story!

Don't have anything against you as a person, it's just your game really upset me, and it should be allowed to say that.

Better luck for your next projects though.

GE

[Enigma]

Thats a bizarre post. You seem to take it all very personally.....

[ReallyDedPoet]

Bought the game, never played it much, SH3 GWX is my game, but to those who like what it has to offer, go for it. At the end of the day it is all about personal choice.

[Theta Sigma]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

EAST, you are right that when ERT came out SHIII was 1-2 years off and that's why I bought ERT, and so did probably many, many others. I kind of enjoyed the demo and had read many good reviews. It was only later that I realized its arcadishness, and that most of the good reviews were written by the same 50 people.

After a few months and installing all updates I began to hate the game, but not because of the graphics. I think the graphics were really good, and the game was all in all very athmospheric. It was the gameplay that brought ERT down. I've never seen anything like it before - an arcade game disguised as a computer simulation, in a way that I so much wanted to like it but couldn't.

It is interesting to read that you believe to have revived the genre - thinking about it, that might be true. Very sad that you missed a great opportunity to create the new AOTD. The point of time was perfect, with AOTD almost 10 years old, the community literally starving, you just released the wrong product. And then, strangely, came the big UBI and showed you indy guys how to create a niche product and a classic.

Btw EAST, did you ever play SHIII with the newest mods? Wasn't it a big mistake to deny the users any kind of modding capabilities? Because on restrospect ERT with mods could have been a much different story!

Don't have anything against you as a person, it's just your game really upset me, and it should be allowed to say that.

Better luck for your next projects though.

GE

Originally Posted by Enigma

Thats a bizarre post. You seem to take it all very personally.....

Ditto. I don't remember EAST ever touting ERT as a "sim". It has some of those qualities, but from what I read, it was always meant to be a game first and foremost, and a great one it is, too. The patch situation was also resolved. You only need one if you bought the non-gold version. Additionally, a couple of cheats/mods were also available. I guess he missed that too.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Originally Posted by EAST

Interesting response.

The graphics were just average for the time. Somethings were a little better, some (like the ocean) a little worse. Our physics are good, but limited. Sound was good, sometimes great. Music was very good - a full original score by Tim Clarke. Our voice response was the best in any game period. Probably the worst thing about Enigma (besides no multiplayer) was the misunderstanding (and mis-marketing by Dreamcatcher) by the subsim afficionados about what Enigma was supposed to be. Everyone wanted a multiplayer AOD or SHx, Enigma wasn't that. Hell, half the people who bought it during the first 3 months didn't even realize it was alternate history.

Our objective with Enigma was NOT to create a ship simulation, but a command simulation - an experience: One guideline was never letting the player be more than 3 minutes from combat; we had to because we have no time acceleration in the game. Another was to create a high pressure situation, layer by layer in each mission. We did this by mis-direction, pre-discovery, carefully timed segments in the missions (enemy aircraft coming in JUST as you were coming in range of a convoy for example).

Face it, SH3 does a much better job of letting you pretend you are running a real submarine, you can plot your approach, take readings and use a TDC to setup your shots. But without time acceleration, SH3 would be beyond boring.

We wanted to focus on the actual combat experiences themselves - attack and avoid, broken approaches and pursuit, overwhelming odds, poor position on a sweet target. Command decisions.

I think you are mistaking what you are getting from looking at the memory. The AI was forced to play by the same rules as a player. They both utilized the same interfaces in the same way for controlling the ships/subs, they both utilize the exact same discovery methods and rule sets with only 1 exception: The mission scripts can be set for any ship to be aware of any other ship. In most cases, the enemy ships will be aware of your position at the beginning of the scenario, or shortly after it starts. This is likely what you were observing.

Not only does the AI not cheat, it utilizes group tactics (surface vs sub) as well as pretty standard naval strategies throughout. I know guys (not on our dev team) who could finish campaigns in a day. Some completed all the patrols and campaigns for surface and submarine for all factions within 2 weeks. Considering some of your comments, its clear you made your mind up before playing it. Nothing wrong with that, your loss not mine.

Incidently, even without getting a multiplayer version done, Enigma has sold very well and continues to sell a couple 1000 units a month more than 3 years after its initial release. We did it as a group of starving developers with next to ZERO funding and singlehandedly revived the genre. Don't agree? Check your history - SH3 was never coming out, UBI made that clear. Naval was dead in the water. Then Enigma started getting interest and making money...then UBI decided to re-look at SH3 (check the development start dates for yourself). Then came the Battlestations Midway video, Navy Field, et. al.

You may not like Enigma, but we accept your thanks for kicking this genre in the balls and getting it rolling again.

--East

I have to totally agree with East here. I play Enigma from time to time, most often when I really dont want to get into hours and hours of 2048x time compression and still have the uncertainty of ever finding a contact. Sure, Silent Hunter 3 is a great game, and it surpasses Enigma only if you view Enigma as a die-hard simulation, which it isnt, and never really claimed to be.

Enigma: RT delivered where it counted, an affordable submarine game that someone could just pick up and play. Who cares if its got outdated graphics? It means it runs faster. It still had three campaigns (if I recall) and some pretty damn good immersion.

Oh, and with regards to the AI, its a common misconception. No, its not the AI's fault, you just need practise.

[EAST]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

EAST, you are right that when ERT came out SHIII was 1-2 years off and that's why I bought ERT, and so did probably many, many others. I kind of enjoyed the demo and had read many good reviews. It was only later that I realized its arcadishness, and that most of the good reviews were written by the same 50 people.

After a few months and installing all updates I began to hate the game, but not because of the graphics. I think the graphics were really good, and the game was all in all very athmospheric. It was the gameplay that brought ERT down. I've never seen anything like it before - an arcade game disguised as a computer simulation, in a way that I so much wanted to like it but couldn't.

It is interesting to read that you believe to have revived the genre - thinking about it, that might be true. Very sad that you missed a great opportunity to create the new AOTD. The point of time was perfect, with AOTD almost 10 years old, the community literally starving, you just released the wrong product. And then, strangely, came the big UBI and showed you indy guys how to create a niche product and a classic.

Btw EAST, did you ever play SHIII with the newest mods? Wasn't it a big mistake to deny the users any kind of modding capabilities? Because on restrospect ERT with mods could have been a much different story!

Don't have anything against you as a person, it's just your game really upset me, and it should be allowed to say that.

Better luck for your next projects though.

GE

I actually met with Bob Loya at Vivendi to try and put together a new Aces Of The Deep, but they weren't interested in the genre at all. I then tried to discuss the acquisition of the old Dynamix name and the classic titles with it...again, not interested.

We didn't have a team that LOVED subsims so making it as accurate as it was (you CAN pick the ship silhouettes out in a lineup) actually created a lot of tension - almost to a man NONE of them except probably Blake Hutchins and Myself really put their heart into it. Making Aces of the Deep (even under an assumed name) was out of the question.

We literally built the Enigma for less than Ubisoft spent on Soft drinks and Pizza for SH3.

I own SH3 btw and do play it. I even payed extra for the hardbound book. Enigma just couldn't compete with the hardcore sims - we didn't have the budget to make one, we didn't have the budget (or a publisher) that could promote one...it just couldn't happen.

If you take Enigma for what it is, you will enjoy it. I still play it, I still like it, I'm still pursuing avenues to get the multiplayer version made...probably a pipe dream, but....

As for modding, you do know that there are modding tools to change everything from art to missions and campaigns right? You can't change the interface or add items (no script language), but you can mod quite a bit if the game.

BTW, shame on you if you play Navy Field and don't understand Engima...

--East

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by EAST

I actually met with Bob Loya at Vivendi to try and put together a new Aces Of The Deep, but they weren't interested in the genre at all. I then tried to discuss the acquisition of the old Dynamix name and the classic titles with it...again, not interested.

We didn't have a team that LOVED subsims so making it as accurate as it was (you CAN pick the ship silhouettes out in a lineup) actually created a lot of tension - almost to a man NONE of them except probably Blake Hutchins and Myself really put their heart into it. Making Aces of the Deep (even under an assumed name) was out of the question.

We literally built the Enigma for less than Ubisoft spent on Soft drinks and Pizza for SH3.

I own SH3 btw and do play it. I even payed extra for the hardbound book. Enigma just couldn't compete with the hardcore sims - we didn't have the budget to make one, we didn't have the budget (or a publisher) that could promote one...it just couldn't happen.

If you take Enigma for what it is, you will enjoy it. I still play it, I still like it, I'm still pursuing avenues to get the multiplayer version made...probably a pipe dream, but....


BTW, shame on you if you play Navy Field and don't understand Engima...

--East

Thanks for the response. What you say might explain why ERT puzzled me. Half of it feels like a great sim (accurate ship models etc.), the other half like a silly arcade sim a la Secret Weapons Over Normandie.

Maybe the reason for me not enjoying the game is that I liked the "sim" parts of it, in fact very much, but it was ruined by the arcade elements.

Imo you guys did a really good job with the ships, the sea environment, and the sound. The alternate history thing was a very good idea.

Originally Posted by EAST

As for modding, you do know that there are modding tools to change everything from art to missions and campaigns right? You can't change the interface or add items (no script language), but you can mod quite a bit if the game.

I think where you completely failed was the sub stealth issue.
And that could have been cured with a simple config files controlling AI policies, sensors etc. When I had ERT (~2004) there was also no way to create new campaigns if you did not enjoy the sequence of increasingly difficult missions that came with ERT.

Originally Posted by EAST

I own SH3 btw and do play it. I even payed extra for the hardbound book. Enigma just couldn't compete with the hardcore sims - we didn't have the budget to make one, we didn't have the budget (or a publisher) that could promote one...it just couldn't happen.

I'm sorry you did not get treated better by your publishers / partners. But I don't agree with people spreading the idea that UBI was shelling out millions for their product. In fact I don't think the Romanians who made SHIII earned a lot. In some videos you see pictures of their horrible office in Bucarest - who of you would want to work there? I also bet they are always under a lot of time pressure (both SHIII and IV have a development time of approximately 12 months). I know it's not the topic of this thread, but it was the commitment of these guys that made SHIII outstanding, not UBI's cheques.

It's correct that I take subsims very seriously and personal. I am not blind though to see that some people love ERT. All people I know, however, threw it into the corner because of things which have mostly been mentioned in this thread.

GE

[EAST]

I wasn't dissing UBI on the amount spent - they did it for under 1.2M as I understand (including promotion), what I meant was, we had raised only a little capital and a great deal was spent on people (on the team) who in the end didn't even contribute anything useable to the final game.

My hat is off to the Romanian team who did a fine job with SH3. I'm looking forward to SH4.

When all is said and done, if you want a subsim, and the game you bought looks and smells like a subsim but ultimately isn't....you aren't gonna be happy. Thats fair.

--East

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by EAST

I actually met with Bob Loya at Vivendi to try and put together a new Aces Of The Deep, but they weren't interested in the genre at all. I then tried to discuss the acquisition of the old Dynamix name and the classic titles with it...again, not interested.

--East

That's a shame, doubt Vivendi could even find the code to those old games anymore. A slightly revamped for XP Red Baron 3D would go over well I think. Still nothing as good out there.

[minsc_tdp]

I liked ERT. It is the reason I am here today. I'm very interested in truly new approaches to things, like the Wii controller, and often spend more time examining the technologies rather than actually playing. ERT caught my attention due to the voice command.

I bought one copy of ERT, played for a bit, and re-bought the gold edition later. I have both boxes. I was a little disappointed that there wasn't much noticable difference between Gold and Standard, but I didn't really check and didn't mind supporting the genre a bit.

I've spent many hours in SH3 and I must say, nothing can compare to the level of immersion when you are using solely your voice to engage in a battle. I never actually ran the subs much, mostly I hunted them. After a particularly long battle dropping hundreds of charges on two subs, an hour or so had gone by. I would stop my engines to hear better, and it was quite intense. I stayed still a bit long and spin around and see two subs surfacing simultaneously at my rear. I fired up the engines and as they're starting I see fish in the water. I'm frantically screaming into the microphone: "Start engines! Ahead flank! Right full! Engage! Engage!" It was too late and I was sunk.

ERT makes me wonder if being hunted 1 vs 1 (or 1 vs 2) by subs is more exciting
than commanding them. It's hard to be paranoid when you're the one stealthing around in the deep and know where everyone is - but above the waterline, it's like looking down into a brick wall. You know they're down there.

The voice was done well (smart move using the built-in windows speech libraries) and it added a level of immersion that is unmatched in SH3 or SH4. If SH4 had all its bugs fixed and added ERT's voice support, I'd never leave the house.

I've fired up ERT now and again to try to get into it, but lately it crashes and unfortunately that has discouraged me. But some of those experiences were truly unforgettable!

[donut]

Pay actual shipping To my paypal Acct.,& you can have It,like new. .donut@whc.net
One mans junk is anothers treasure

[EAST]

Originally Posted by donut

Pay actual shipping To my paypal Acct.,& you can have It,like new. .donut@whc.net
One mans junk is anothers treasure

donut, why keep hammering on us because we didn't make a game you liked? Very little difference between something a dedicated troll would post and your post...you're in danger of impersonating a brown donut.

[Reaves]

I thought Enigma was a great game. Can't remember if that was the first subsim I played that had the command room. Either way I was looking forward to the multiplayer of that a lot back in the day. Would have been my type of MMO.