Surface Surprise. Good tactic against light escorts.

[andy_311]

I already took out a "flower class" with the deck gun in GWX it was at long range and there was medium fog and it's early war but I ain't going to try it in good weather,or later on in the war.

[Sailor Steve]

In Nicholas Monsarrat's The Cruel Sea he describes what happens when a u-boat surfaces behind a corvette (so the corvette's single deck gun couldn't bear) in real life: The u-boat crew has to get on deck, de-waterproof the gun, load the gun and fire. While this was going on the corvette's AA crew opened up on the U-boat with the 20mm, killing everybody on the u-boat's bridge and deck. The u-boat then surrendered.

So much for game mechanics.

[Lovro]

Isnt there a movie that shows guys taking out the radio room with deck gun after a suprise surface. And I think that the target ship was even broadside against them. Talking about movie magic .

[Letum]

Hehe, I just noticed the username of the original poster.

I wouldn't trust tactical advise from anyone with that name! :rotfl:






just kidding

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Letum

Hehe, I just noticed the username of the original poster.

I wouldn't trust tactical advise from anyone with that name! :rotfl:






just kidding

LOL!!!



Sailor-Steve. If an U-boat pops 100metres behind a corvette, the 20mm will reduce any crewman on the deck to meat. That's no wonder.

But if the same U-boat pops out of the water 1500-to-2000 metres from the same corvette, facing it directly (small target profile), that same 20mm gun will have some trouble hitting anything, giving enough time to the sub crew to open accurate enough fire with the 88mm. At longer ranges you will have problems with the wave motion ruining your fire solution. At shorter ranges, light cannon and MGs will kill your crew. But at 1500-2000 you're out of the light cannon range (they fire and can hit your sub but with no accuracy at all, so they can't purposely kill crewmen), and the range is small enough for you to be able to hit with a high degree of accuracy.


"so much for game mechanics"...well, as I already said in my opening post, I'm not making this out of air. British subs did just this with their 3 inch deck gun against light escorts, taking them by surprise, and in multiple escorts-vs-one sub engagements. Go read Capt. Young's book if you don't believe me. Maybe they were also gaming a "real life mechanics" loophole?

This tactic WAS used in WW2. Not sure if by any U-boat but it was by allied subs. And very succesfully, if I might add.




AVGWarhawk, sorry it didn't work for you. In which circunstances did you try to do it?. As I said avobe you must be careful of the range at which you blow ballast. Too far and you can't hit the escort's main gun with accuracy. Too near and it's light weapons will get crewmen killed. But done at the right range and when directly facing the enemy (a well trained crew won't hurt either because that means higher rate of fire), it works...or at least it does for me :O

[danurve]

Originally Posted by Lovro

Isnt there a movie that shows guys taking out the radio room with deck gun after a suprise surface. And I think that the target ship was even broadside against them. Talking about movie magic .

U-571
But that wasn't a suprise surface.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by RAM

But if the same U-boat pops out of the water 1500-to-2000 metres from the same corvette, facing it directly (small target profile), that same 20mm gun will have some trouble hitting anything, giving enough time to the sub crew to open accurate enough fire with the 88mm. At longer ranges you will have problems with the wave motion ruining your fire solution. At shorter ranges, light cannon and MGs will kill your crew. But at 1500-2000 you're out of the light cannon range (they fire and can hit your sub but with no accuracy at all, so they can't purposely kill crewmen), and the range is small enough for you to be able to hit with a high degree of accuracy.


"so much for game mechanics"...well, as I already said in my opening post, I'm not making this out of air. British subs did just this with their 3 inch deck gun against light escorts, taking them by surprise, and in multiple escorts-vs-one sub engagements. Go read Capt. Young's book if you don't believe me. Maybe they were also gaming a "real life mechanics" loophole?

This tactic WAS used in WW2. Not sure if by any U-boat but it was by allied subs. And very succesfully, if I might add.




AVGWarhawk, sorry it didn't work for you. In which circunstances did you try to do it?. As I said avobe you must be careful of the range at which you blow ballast. Too far and you can't hit the escort's main gun with accuracy. Too near and it's light weapons will get crewmen killed. But done at the right range and when directly facing the enemy (a well trained crew won't hurt either because that means higher rate of fire), it works...or at least it does for me :O

If a submarine surfaces bow-in to a destroyers broadside, it's not that hard for the DD to move around to the side. It still takes more than a minute to ready a deck gun that's been waterproofed. I'll find the book, but this is the first time I've ever heard of anyone using a tactic like this, and I've heard a lot. Don't forget that the escort only has to get one hit on a submarine's pressure hull and it's no longer a submarine.

Saying it works, at least for you, indicates that again you're talking about the game, not something you've done in real life.

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If a submarine surfaces bow-in to a destroyers broadside, it's not that hard for the DD to move around to the side.

Well, for starters, if you do this against a full-fledged destroyer you deserve to die . This is intended to take light escorts out of the fight, not to dance a tango vs a DD.

If you surface bow-in to a corvette or smaller armed ship it may be not that hard for him to turn around. But it will be hard for him to try and hit you while he turns around. You're a small target and he's turning-the worse scenario for an accurate shot on a ship you barely see, 1.5km away and giving you his smaller profile possible.

Its not hard but the It still takes more than a minute to ready a deck gun that's been waterproofed. I'll find the book, but this is the first time I've ever heard of anyone using a tactic like this, and I've heard a lot.

"One of our submarines"
Edward Young
Wordsworth Military Library
ISBN 1-85326-681-7.

Pages 240, 279,280, 281,282, and more pages describe different surface actions by HMS Storm vs lightly armed ships. But page 298 and 299 are the ones which made me wonder if this would work in SH3 (and it does ). There, Mr. Young describes a 35-minute surface action fought vs a whole convoy of small ships, with escort of light armed ships and some MTBs. Storm sank several ships by gunfire and escaped unharmed.


Oh, and it's a wonderful read anyway, so if you purchase it you won't regret it

Saying it works, at least for you, indicates that again you're talking about the game, not something you've done in real life.

indeed, I haven't done it in real life. But others did. And with a good degree of success...and against multiple enemies .

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by RAM

indeed, I haven't done it in real life. But others did. And with a good degree of success...and against multiple enemies .

A very few did so. This was far from SOP in both the Pacific and Atlantic, as the submarine was designed to submerge to avoid surface combatants, not engage them in a fire fight. The WWII submarine, as such, was woefully under-armed, under-armored and under-powered.

Esentially, the argument for the historical accuracy of the daily application of this practice is not unlike citing the gentleman that shot down a Zero with an M1. Yes, it was done, but it is probably not a good idea to make this your standard practice in combat. It is why God gave us AA guns.

In this specific case, it is why God invented silent running.

[RAM]

Well, Takeda, I don't suggest doing this everytime, or a lot, or even usually. I did especifically say that this is a last-ditch move for situations where if you don't do anything else you will lose your target, or where you face worse odds if you submerge than if you try to fight it out on the surface (when you're spotted by an armed trawler in very shallow waters with no room to maneouver at all.)

As an everyday tactic it, of course, is not advisable because sooner or later you'll bite the dust.

[Corsair]

Originally Posted by RAM

Well, Takeda, I don't suggest doing this everytime, or a lot, or even usually. I did especifically say that this is a last-ditch move for situations where if you don't do anything else you will lose your target, or where you face worse odds if you submerge than if you try to fight it out on the surface (when you're spotted by an armed trawler in very shallow waters with no room to maneouver at all.)

As an everyday tactic it, of course, is not advisable because sooner or later you'll bite the dust.

What are you doing in very shallow waters with no room to manoeuver besides looking for suicide ?

[Sea Wolf]

Nice tactic, i've tried doing this before and I think managed to do two of them once but they have to be far apart. Also use the AA gun against the MGs it's far easier and does quite a bit of damage.

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Corsair

What are you doing in very shallow waters with no room to manoeuver besides looking for suicide ?

Well, don't know you, but I go wherever BdU orders me to patrol...even if it's a shallow water quadrant

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by RAM

Well, don't know you, but I go wherever BdU orders me to patrol...even if it's a shallow water quadrant

What are you gonna do when Bdu orders you into a CG grid that's located in the middle of mainland Spain ? :hmm: It does happen on occasion you know

[RAM]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

What are you gonna do when Bdu orders you into a CG grid that's located in the middle of mainland Spain ? :hmm: It does happen on occasion you know

Hummm...put the uboat over a trolley, loan a truck and tow the submarine up to the patrol zone? .

Now seriously, I've never seen that happening. It may have something to do that I've almost always played SH3 with mods installed (mostly GW and now GWX)...