Did you ever think about it?

[melnibonian]

Originally Posted by Subwolf

But I think you should speak for yourself and not on behalf of the Greek people or the Jews, I'm sure that many of them would not agree with you.

I totally agree with you. As I said in all my posts I do speak for myself and I do express my opinion, as I am sure you do as well. I'm sure many will not agree and I hope some will but the important issue here is that we are capable of having a civilised discussion about a difficult issue and exchange opinions while at the same time respecting each other

[Cpt. Stewker]

I'm amazed how off topic these threads get on these forums.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Stewker

I'm amazed how off topic these threads get on these forums.

Yeah, she slipped away but the following discussion is pretty good and a lot of viewpoints are brought to the table. These viewpoints from around the globe. It is interesting to read all and see the sentiments concerning the aftermath of WW2. Thus far it has been pretty civil.

[orangewhale]

They may have been motivated by an awful ideology and a 'ruthless sick leader' or whatever but those boys in those iron coffins and i stress the word boys, were not much older than me. In fact some of them would have been 19 year olds like myself. If all you can bring to mind when you think of that is that hitler was a bad man so everyone of his followers was evil then you need to watch das boot again. They went out boys came back men and they had to live with the torture of what they went through the rest of their lives if they lived through it. Don't you think they deserve a bit of credit everyone makes mistakes and they made the mistake of following a misguided ideology but i'll be damned if im gonna call them evil if they had to live through that just to learn what war was really about, rather than some abstract far flung glory seeking stunt that was to literally die for and for your country. Let them have peace in their iron coffins at the bottom of the sea i say. A good history teacher once said to me, in the study of WWII it does no good to concentrate on how evil hitler was because it detracts from the pursuit of the facts that surround that war. Remember wether we are Greek, Jews, or Germans we are all still men and women. Under the sun under the stars there is but one race the human race, we all suffered in that war let it rest and pay respect to the dead and not what makes them different for some far flung ideology.

Hope that makes some interesting point, i don't know, have a ponder on that one people.

[P_Funk]

Well my grandfather, the ruthless former Commando/Tank Commander (sounds crazy eh?), said that he had sympathy for the German soldiers. He says that they were just like him, a bunch of kids drawn into a war begun by a bunch of old men. But he said the SS were different and that he didn't spare them any mercy. Thats pretty understandable I think.

[Safe-Keeper]

[Apparates into thread from noplace]
Just for the record, what I said was a joke and nothing else. I didn't mean to suggest anyone here thought the German u-boat campaign was a "good thing".
[Vanishes out of thread into who-knows-where]

[orangewhale]

I'm not supporting either side but we are all human no matter what we do but it is precisley because we are human which makes us accountable for our actions. And your Grandfather is absolutely right. He's actually quoting a very famous thing Thucydides's said and countless others have said over history who knows if Thucydides started it but it's the truth that old men start wars for the young to fight because only the young can fight long and hard enough to win, sad but true. Anyway, my sh3 isn't working properly so im gonna post something less heavy so that i can work out how to get it running again you know how computers r people, lol. ahh off for a cigarette :p

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by orangewhale

They may have been motivated by an awful ideology and a 'ruthless sick leader' or whatever but those boys in those iron coffins and i stress the word boys, were not much older than me. In fact some of them would have been 19 year olds like myself. If all you can bring to mind when you think of that is that hitler was a bad man so everyone of his followers was evil then you need to watch das boot again. They went out boys came back men and they had to live with the torture of what they went through the rest of their lives if they lived through it. Don't you think they deserve a bit of credit everyone makes mistakes and they made the mistake of following a misguided ideology but i'll be damned if im gonna call them evil if they had to live through that just to learn what war was really about, rather than some abstract far flung glory seeking stunt that was to literally die for and for your country. Let them have peace in their iron coffins at the bottom of the sea i say. A good history teacher once said to me, in the study of WWII it does no good to concentrate on how evil hitler was because it detracts from the pursuit of the facts that surround that war. Remember wether we are Greek, Jews, or Germans we are all still men and women. Under the sun under the stars there is but one race the human race, we all suffered in that war let it rest and pay respect to the dead and not what makes them different for some far flung ideology.

Hope that makes some interesting point, i don't know, have a ponder on that one people.

Your history teacher was not a good one but a great one. It would seem he/she has a pretty good grasp of human folly/nature and looks at all of history as an objective observer. You probably should have taken another class or two with this teacher if you could!

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by Subwolf

I can't believe you guys, feeling so sorry for the German U-boat crews...

But none of you even mention the heroic civilian men and women who sailed in the merchant fleet during the war, those who gave their lives to save your country from the nazi's, those who sailed for up to five years under a constant threat of getting killed by a torpedo, and could never get a good night's sleep while at sea.

They are the real heroes of the Atlantic war.

Of course it was tough for the Germans too, but remember...they started the war, they wanted it to happen.

I don't think that you're right. The political leaders wanted the war but I don't think that any soldier was very happy to go out and get himself killed. It may sound cynical but these guys just did their job (I'm not talking about any attrocities that were conducted!)! So if you mourn the cillian losses of the Allies you have to remember that there were many German civillians as well, who have been killed.

[HundertzehnGustav]

this whole discussion is useless.

dead people are dead people.
working in a lancaster factory.
producing T-34s in Moskau
building 109s in Berlin
Shooting at germans in Arnheim
killing Jews in auschwitz
Kamikazes towards uss Essex

what ever

i was born in 82 and am happy not to see this

what you all must do is to get over, get some distance

cry a tear and learn your lessons

move on to a better future

not forget the pictures and the sights, the losses in all these wars mankind has fought

NOT FORGET THE WARS

REMEMBER WELL and TELL YOUR CHILDREN

WARN THEM

who was bad and who was right in the Namerica VS Samerica war is not important

the Japs invading China is not important.

6 day war in israel is not important.

important are the lessons you take, research you make and memorize well and tell your children.

THAT is important.

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

this whole discussion is useless.

dead people are dead people.
working in a lancaster factory.
producing T-34s in Moskau
building 109s in Berlin
Shooting at germans in Arnheim
killing Jews in auschwitz
Kamikazes towards uss Essex

what ever

i was born in 82 and am happy not to see this

what you all must do is to get over, get some distance

cry a tear and learn your lessons

move on to a better future

not forget the pictures and the sights, the losses in all these wars mankind has fought

NOT FORGET THE WARS

REMEMBER WELL and TELL YOUR CHILDREN

WARN THEM

who was bad and who was right in the Namerica VS Samerica war is not important

the Japs invading China is not important.

6 day war in israel is not important.

important are the lessons you take, research you make and memorize well and tell your children.

THAT is important.

How can you learn a lesson if you don't think about the past, if you don't care if something was good or bad. The outcome of every conflict is as important as the way that led to that outcome! You see, this discussion is not useless at all.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, the thread was really concerning what the crewmen were thinking out there in the vast ocean. Somehow it turned into a Nazi is always a big old meanie without feeling. Most have come to the conclusion that they were just like you and me, they wanted to survive, love and laugh again. Just people forced into a war, nothing more, nothing less.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

this whole discussion is useless.

dead people are dead people.
working in a lancaster factory.
producing T-34s in Moskau
building 109s in Berlin
Shooting at germans in Arnheim
killing Jews in auschwitz
Kamikazes towards uss Essex

what ever

i was born in 82 and am happy not to see this

what you all must do is to get over, get some distance

cry a tear and learn your lessons

move on to a better future

not forget the pictures and the sights, the losses in all these wars mankind has fought

NOT FORGET THE WARS

REMEMBER WELL and TELL YOUR CHILDREN

WARN THEM

who was bad and who was right in the Namerica VS Samerica war is not important

the Japs invading China is not important.

6 day war in israel is not important.

important are the lessons you take, research you make and memorize well and tell your children.

THAT is important.

No one here was stating anything of the wars were important. What is important is that history does not repeat itself, but since you brought up these wars were not important is a faux pa at best. Perhaps not as important to you in your ripe old age of 24. Perhaps you might talk with those that did see what you are glad you did not see. Perhaps you might give a little more respect to those that saw to it you could sit on your arse and babble about WHATEVER and FORGET ABOUT IT and all the IMPORTANT LESSONS we teach our children. You might want to reassess you outlook on you FREEDOMS these WHATEVER'S did for you. Cry a tear and move on. Have a little respect for those on both sides that CRIED A TEAR on their sons flag drapped coffins. Get some distance???? Sounds like you are pretty distant from reality. Talk with those that were there and just see how cry a tear, move on and distance they have taken.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

No one here was stating anything of the wars were important. What is important is that history does not repeat itself, but since you brought up these wars were not important is a faux pa at best. Perhaps not as important to you in your ripe old age of 24. Perhaps you might talk with those that did see what you are glad you did not see. Perhaps you might give a little more respect to those that saw to it you could sit on your arse and babble about WHATEVER and FORGET ABOUT IT and all the IMPORTANT LESSONS we teach our children. You might want to reassess you outlook on you FREEDOMS these WHATEVER'S did for you. Cry a tear and move on. Have a little respect for those on both sides that CRIED A TEAR on their sons flag drapped coffins. Get some distance???? Sounds like you are pretty distant from reality. Talk with those that were there and just see how cry a tear, move on and distance they have taken.

I have nothing more to add to what you said, because you said it very well. I would be wrong not to applaud it.

Hiding your head in the sand does not make it go away.

[Subwolf]

Originally Posted by hyperion2206

I don't think that you're right. The political leaders wanted the war but I don't think that any soldier was very happy to go out and get himself killed. It may sound cynical but these guys just did their job (I'm not talking about any attrocities that were conducted!)! So if you mourn the cillian losses of the Allies you have to remember that there were many German civillians as well, who have been killed.

I'm sorry, but I don't share your view. A German soldier didn't just do his job, he was fanatic about his sick leader. And so were the German people, look at some war film material and see how they saluted him when he told them that they were the world's pure people, and the rest outside Germany was trash.

I don't think I could care less about the civilians in Berlin and other cities who were bombed day and night, they asked for it.

Btw...this is a dangerous thread, I'm amazed that it hasn't turned into a real argument yet. But one thing is for sure, we will never come to an agreement in here.