Did you ever think about it?

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Ole

i guess, there were many whoose possibilities were raised only by serving in the army or even joining the Nazi party. These, for me, were poor pigs. Those who identified themselves with the Nazi party, their programm and their ideology, were barbarous men. Its a sad part of the german history. But it developed something good in the german population: we try to avoid wars as good as possible and we are very aware of the government.

So, we try to avoid wars "as good as possible"? True, and it's easy when others "die Kastanien aus dem Feuer holen", right? It grants people like you the comfortness to be able to come up with highly sophisticated concepts like: "a government sending people into war is ruthless and worthless." Right, there is nothing worth, in fact right enough, fighting for - the other side of that same coin would be all countries at war are the same. In your relativist mindset, that would mean Hitler's Germany was unjustifiably under attack by the Allies. We were not; and believe it or not, but WWII was neither the first nor the last war in the history of mankind when concepts of right and wrong - albeit in shades of grey - went off against each other. It is easy for you in hindsight 60 years after to damn the Nazis and thus claim the moral highground, but the rest of your posting and your slanderous and poorly hidden (smartass? try again) attack against one of the best allies - albeit not just out of courtesy, but of common goals - our country has ever had after WWII shows that you lack any deeper understanding of history and political mechanisms. In fact, your very simplicity in political thought and simply picking up on the Anti-US bias we are served in the media here on a daily base has you have more in common with your grandpa than you might have ever thought. My Grandpa was also serving in WWII, on the East Front, in fact my Dad was, too, on the West Front as 16 y.o., but this does not grant me the moral highground to now make smart ass remarks like

in so far, i think no one would be able to install a new dictatorship in germany, even not an official "elected" like an other big country has.

Very sophisticated indeed. What kind of logic is that anyway? "Because we in fact ELECTED a REAL dictatorship in the 1930s, and needed democracy bombed back into us, we do now have the authority to teach the rest of the world on how to conduct policy in a moral manner." Yeah, and the two students we pay the most attention to just coincidentaly happen to be our former enemies of WWII, those who bombed the **** out of us before giving us our freedom back while watching the fence during the Cold War for us, and those people we were bzy gassing in the 40s. Yes, we just want the best for them, since they are our friends, thus it's in their best interest if people like you and the media in this country call or portray the US a near-dictatorship and alienate about 50% of its population, and call or portray the Israelis today's Nazis. It's all in good spirit, folks! Anyone who detects attempts to whitewash one's own past by smearing others is just not thinking hard enough!

And "We are very aware of the government"?? Give me a break. "Very aware" as in having state sponsored television you have to pay mandatory fees for even if you don't watch it? Or as in our former chancellor Schröder calling Putin a "Spotless Democrat" short before his government goes belly up and he joins one of the biggest Russian gasoline companies as an "advisor"? And are you also "very aware" of what the bureacrats in EU's Brussels are spinning up each day, you know, those guys making laws for us and we couldn't even vote for? I hope you are, cause I'm not. But I see, you're rather busy with "worrying" about your 'ol friend the US turning fascist cause of that evil, evil BushHitler.

"Terror is the war of the poor" my ass. You want to be different than your grandpa, get a moral compass, and quickly. And maybe listen to some live speech of Bush or some else US figure next time on CNN International before you go and read the whickedly distorted "quoting" most of the German media, including what is prolly your beloved Spiegel and Heute Nachrichten are making out of it. But since people constantly wonder about my ability to read books written in English, I'm afraid proper knowledge of English to accomplish that feat might be beyond you as with most. No BBC for Grandpa, no CNN for you. No worries, we are "very aware". Allrighty. If you want to become aware of something, go to

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hsa01.htm

and compare THAT with what you read TODAY in Germany. If still everything is fine for you, I feel very sorry. Hint: It's not really those skinheads running around occasionally, it's the BS up in people's head, OK? Back then, most were not "Barbarous" men, as you put it. They were just stupid and ignorant. And it doesn't matter whether it's a swastika or a red star. But don't worry - you know you are not alone, you are "very aware" together with about 85% of Germany.

To the rest: Sorry, but I have a hard time with that ****. Actually, I have a hard time staying in Europe, let alone Germany, albeit I was born here. I have this kind of BS and those kind of people talking this BS around me all damn day long. I hate it when I come here as a constant lurker only to get the same ****.

It is one thing to critizise Bush, especially when you are an American Citizen who might actually have relatives engaged in combat right now, it's another thing to just blabber bull**** about a pseudo-Fascist US you picked up from yet another Anti-American rant in yet another Anti-American weekly as a German - especially when you use it as a stinky revisionist tool in a discussion about Nazi-Germany - and ESPECIALLY when you do it without noticing it, or anything wrong.

Regards
heartc

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Dowly

In a documentary about the Winter War I saw a few weeks back, a historian said that some of the finnish soldiers that were manning the machineguns had to be pulled out of the front as their mental state collapsed. The reason was the tactic the russians used most of the time, an all out frontal assault against a fortified lines. On a 'busy day' one machinegunner had to kill close to one thousand enemy soldiers that were just running towards you. I cant even imagine how that must have felt.

Right. It was horrible for both sides of that, just imagine being in one or the other side's shoes. Whichever side you're on - the Finnish soldier had their own country to defend behind their backs; and I think one could imagine just what sort of 'motivation' it took to get a Soviet soldier into one of those human wave attacks (read: you'd die a worse death if you refused to be part of it). Later in 1943, my great-grandfather would suffer a horrible fate at the hands of a Finnish sniper north of Leningrad (he was shot in the leg, or perhaps closer to 'had his leg shot off', in part to try and draw out the rest of his squad into the open to help him - and be shot all the same). But I'm not going to be bitter at the whole of the Finnish armed forces for that. They had a lot to lose if they relented. My response in this thread as proof of my view: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=101680

And you can't narrow it down to 'the guy behind the trigger'. The guy behind the trigger isn't just there pulling the trigger. If you think it was easy for U-boat men to sink poor harmless merchants... remember how the U-boot fleet had THE highest casualty rate of ANY armed service branch in any side of WWII? So much for cowardice. :hmm:

[Dowly]

Yea, it doesnt matter which nationality the guy is. Anyone going through the hell the people went through during the WWII ought to get a medal.

[bigboywooly]

I was watching some documenteries the other month on the battle of Britain
They had some interviews with pilots
One of them was saying his billet was on the edge of the airfield
He said the 4 of them went to bed one night at the start of the b of B
The next night there were 3 of them
2 the next night and the next day he was the only one left

A couple of days later he was shot down but he bailed out over land - the other 3 had died in the air or in the sea

After that he said he never bothered to even ask for his new room mates names and never made friends as it wasnt worth it

Now thats dehumanization for you

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

I was watching some documenteries the other month on the battle of Britain
They had some interviews with pilots
One of them was saying his billet was on the edge of the airfield
He said the 4 of them went to bed one night at the start of the b of B
The next night there were 3 of them
2 the next night and the next day he was the only one left

A couple of days later he was shot down but he bailed out over land - the other 3 had died in the air or in the sea

After that he said he never bothered to even ask for his new room mates names and never made friends as it wasnt worth it

Now thats dehumanization for you

I have read that quite often. Most did not get chummy with new members to the squads. One day there and the next day gone. This was in all branches of the military. We cannot say though that quite a few did make it through in the same squads and were good friends.

[bigboywooly]

Goes without saying AVG
At the time - battle of Britain - it was the probably the best way to get through it
As war progressed and fighter pilot losses plummeted normal service would have been resumed lol
Mind its a bit hard not to make friends in a sub as you are stuck with them for weeks on end
And 90% of time if they go you go

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Goes without saying AVG
At the time - battle of Britain - it was the probably the best way to get through it
As war progressed and fighter pilot losses plummeted normal service would have been resumed lol
Mind its a bit hard not to make friends in a sub as you are stuck with them for weeks on end
And 90% of time if they go you go

I bet the percentage was higher than 90%! I bet Vegas would not have but the odds on the board!

[Safe-Keeper]

After watching movies by Stabiz and footage from the real thing, etc. has anyone really thought about what the Germans were doing out there in the oceans?

Yesh. They were deployed by Grossadmiral Dönitz to operate against merchant shipping bound for England, in an effort to starve the island out.

More info:
http://uboat.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...281939-1945%29



[/smartass]

[Subwolf]

Good point Safe-Keeper.

All of you who lives in the UK, USA, Canada, Australia were not occupied by the nazis for several years. Norway and most of the countries around Germany were. There is no history of occupation in your countries, you don't know what that means.

So I guess you are excused for all these nice words about the Germans during the war. But I hate them for it, and can never forgive them. That will never change.

However, I don't hate the people of Germany of today, they can't help what happened 65 years ago, and today they don't support nazism more than anyone else.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Subwolf

So I guess you are excused for all these nice words about the Germans during the war. But I hate them for it, and can never forgive them. That will never change.

Remember, I said I was born in Leningrad, USSR. I guess I'm not excused.

Well, but you're not one of those people who refuses to play SHIII because it's about Germans. Cheers for that, those kinds of things are a pet peeve for me.

To make amends, however, I promise to make a point of reading a book about the Battle of the Atlantic as it related to merchants seamen. Admit it, people - how many of you have read books about U-boats and escorts but read nothing about the merchantmen? Eh? Eh?

[Subwolf]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Remember, I said I was born in Leningrad, USSR. I guess I'm not excused.

I can't remember that the USSR was occupied either..

But yes the nazis tried to, and had to pay for it. That failed operation was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Subwolf

But yes the nazis tried to, and had to pay for it. That failed operation was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

Not the whole of it, certainly. But the parts that were experienced the most brutal occupation seen anywhere. Certainly don't try to tell my grandfather the USSR wasn't occupied - Germans lived in his house, Germans killed his livestock, Germans took away his brother to a concentration camp, Germans left a 'present' in the barn when they were driven out, which was unfortunately discovered by my unwitting grandfather and friend, when they opened the door and the charge behind it detonated, killing one of the boys instantaneously and seriously wounding the other.

But these same Germans survived the battle of Demyansk pocket while they were there, being completely cut off from their own lines for weeks in the dead of winter under constant Russian counter-attacks, with an unfriendly Russian population around them taking revenge when opportunity arose. I can admire at least some of them for their persistence in a battle against all odds, can't I? As irony would have it, I'm sure some of these Germans were likely distant relatives of mine. All the more likely if any of them had last names like Mueller or von Koestner (my german roots). And, to think, aren't all people sort of related somewhere down the line?

That's quite off-topic, sorry. It's personal to me too as you can see. But I don't hold the same bitterness.

[Subwolf]

CCIP, yes I know how the Russians had to suffer, please don't get me wrong.

What I mean by no occupation is that they didn't manage to remove Stalin and the leadership, and they didn't reach Moscow I believe?

[melnibonian]

Originally Posted by Subwolf

All of you who lives in the UK, USA, Canada, Australia were not occupied by the nazis for several years. Norway and most of the countries around Germany were. There is no history of occupation in your countries, you don't know what that means.

So I guess you are excused for all these nice words about the Germans during the war. But I hate them for it, and can never forgive them. That will never change.

Subwolf hi

I am Greek and we did suffer as a nation from the Germans. We had in percentages (as we used to be only 7 milion then) the same amount of casualties as Germany and the Soviet Union. People were starving and dropping dead in the streets. Whole villages were burnt and destroyed, people executed for almost no reason. Also don't forget that 30-50,000 Greek citizens of jewish faith were liquidated in the concentration camps. Th whole jewish community of Thesaloniki vanished. That community was there for almost 1000 years, and whithin a few months all of them perished. We also had (and still have) a huge merchant fleet that suffered a lot from the U-Boats. Still we do not hate the Germans. We don't forget but we do forgive. After all a long time has passed and the only thing we can do is to learn from the past and try to make sure it will never happen again. I'm not a religious person but I do like to follow the quote 'Mistakes are human, forgiveness is divine'. Don't let me wrong I do not judge you for not forgiving and keeping the grudge (or anything else you like to call it) against the germans. I just state my opinion which is different to yours. I mean no offence to you and your beliefs, and if I said something that you find offencive or even difficult to accept I am deeply sorry. After all we all exchange opinions here and we all learn something from each other. That's the legacy of WWII. We live in a democratic state and we solve our differences through dialog (well most of the times at least)

[Subwolf]

melnibonian,

We all got our own opinions, and we respect each others in this thread, otherwise it would turn into WW3. This is still today a very sensitive issue.

But I think you should speak for yourself and not on behalf of the Greek people or the Jews, I'm sure that many of them would not agree with you.