SH4 Sub. Vs Sub. - Page 2

Nightmare · 12-01-06, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AG124

Personally, I would like to see AI programmed subs in SHIII (not going to happen now though), but I don't really care that much in SHIV, as I am more interested in sinking surface shipping anyway.

Exactly! It would be nice to catch the occasional Japanese sub on the surface, and running the risk of getting torpedoed while on the surface yourself. However I don’t want it at the sacrifice of other more important improvements.

_Seth_ · 12-01-06, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

You know there was one instance during WW2, where a British V class sub sunk a German IXD2 Uboat with a spread of torpedos while both vessels were submerged - the only instance of this ever happening in all of naval history.

I hate to arrest you, mate, but the uboat that was sunk was an ViiC, and it happend outside of Norway...
The V-class was british, but the crew was Norwegian.

From uboat.net:

U-974

Type

VIIC

Laid down 26 Jun, 1942 Blohm & Voss, Hamburg Commissioned 22 Apr, 1943 Oblt. Joachim ZaubitzerCommanders 22 Apr, 1943 - 8 Nov, 1943 Joachim Zaubitzer9 Nov, 1943 - 19 Apr, 1944 Heinz Wolff Career 1 patrol 22 Apr, 1943 - 31 Oct, 1943 5. Flottille (training)
1 Nov, 1943 - 19 Apr, 1944 7. Flottille (front boat)
Successes No ships sunk or damagedFate Sunk 19 April, 1944 in the North Sea by Stavanger, Norway, in position 59.08N, 05.23E, by torpedoes from Norwegian submarine HNoMS Ula. 42 dead and 8 survivors.
The loss of U-974
The Norwegian submarine Ula fired a spread of 4 torpedoes towards U-974 at the range of about 1200 meters. One of those hit the boat just aft of the conning tower causing a major explosion which shook the Ula which crash dived and during that dive they could hear the U-974 break in two as it sank.
The boat was discovered in 1996 by a ROV at about 190m depth (ca. 580 feet). She is broken in two parts, one of about 15 meters and the second of around 40 meters in length. The wreck lies about 1000m south east of Loten on the western Bokanfjorden, near Stavanger, Norway.

From http://www.skovheim.org/located/rogaland/u974/u974.htm

The German submarine U 974 was torpedoed on 19. April 1944 by the Norwegian Submarine Ula when she was heading out from Bergen city, and the submarine broke in two pieces when she were hit by the torpedoes. The submarine sunk with forty two men in the deep, and only eight men of the crew survived this sinking. The German submarine had since she was laid down in Hamburg in 1942 been on only one patrol, thou without any sinking or sucesses. The sinking of U 974 was noted in the extremely effective German statistics and forgotten until 1996. The wreck was then discovered by the Norwegian navy vessel KNM Tyr with help from a ROV, which located the wreck at about 190m depth outside Stavanger city. The wreck lies approximately about one thousand meters south east of Loten in the western Bokanfjorden, near Stavanger city...

BH · 12-01-06, 08:04 PM

Agree with the some of the other posters. Sub vs Sub was not a factor in the Second World War. Attacks on the surfaced happened very rarely.

The technology simply was not available to conduct submerged attacks against a submerged target.

Not to mention that most of the Japanese submarine force never left port as Japanese naval doctrine was to draw the enemy to the open and engage in large surface battles with battleships and heavy cruisers. The naval leadership largely underutilized their submarine force.

Corsair · 12-02-06, 06:27 AM

@ Seth : Thks for info, was not aware of this event...

GV_Darkata · 12-02-06, 06:51 AM

real game is uman vs uman no uman vs hardwer (stupid IA)
bye bye
sh2 vs Dc is real
sh3 vs stupid IA (DD artificial) no is real
noi ci divertiamo la sera su ubi a combattere sub vs sub, provate anche voi ciao

Corsair · 12-02-06, 07:34 AM

Re SH3, if you talk about the stock game, I agree the DDs are no real challenge. If you play any supermod, that's another story... I play NYGM myself and can tell you they do a hell of a job chasing you. And GWX beta testers who are experienced players tell us they died more often than what they wanted...

PS : sorry my italian not good enough for the end of the post (except "ciao") ...

DAB · 12-02-06, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Seth_

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

You know there was one instance during WW2, where a British V class sub sunk a German IXD2 Uboat with a spread of torpedos while both vessels were submerged - the only instance of this ever happening in all of naval history.

I hate to arrest you, mate, but the uboat that was sunk was an ViiC, and it happend outside of Norway...
The V-class was british, but the crew was Norwegian.

From uboat.net:

U-974

Type

VIIC

Laid down 26 Jun, 1942 Blohm & Voss, Hamburg Commissioned 22 Apr, 1943 Oblt. Joachim ZaubitzerCommanders 22 Apr, 1943 - 8 Nov, 1943 Joachim Zaubitzer9 Nov, 1943 - 19 Apr, 1944 Heinz Wolff Career 1 patrol 22 Apr, 1943 - 31 Oct, 1943 5. Flottille (training)
1 Nov, 1943 - 19 Apr, 1944 7. Flottille (front boat)
Successes No ships sunk or damagedFate Sunk 19 April, 1944 in the North Sea by Stavanger, Norway, in position 59.08N, 05.23E, by torpedoes from Norwegian submarine HNoMS Ula. 42 dead and 8 survivors.
The loss of U-974
The Norwegian submarine Ula fired a spread of 4 torpedoes towards U-974 at the range of about 1200 meters. One of those hit the boat just aft of the conning tower causing a major explosion which shook the Ula which crash dived and during that dive they could hear the U-974 break in two as it sank.
The boat was discovered in 1996 by a ROV at about 190m depth (ca. 580 feet). She is broken in two parts, one of about 15 meters and the second of around 40 meters in length. The wreck lies about 1000m south east of Loten on the western Bokanfjorden, near Stavanger, Norway.

From http://www.skovheim.org/located/rogaland/u974/u974.htm

The German submarine U 974 was torpedoed on 19. April 1944 by the Norwegian Submarine Ula when she was heading out from Bergen city, and the submarine broke in two pieces when she were hit by the torpedoes. The submarine sunk with forty two men in the deep, and only eight men of the crew survived this sinking. The German submarine had since she was laid down in Hamburg in 1942 been on only one patrol, thou without any sinking or sucesses. The sinking of U 974 was noted in the extremely effective German statistics and forgotten until 1996. The wreck was then discovered by the Norwegian navy vessel KNM Tyr with help from a ROV, which located the wreck at about 190m depth outside Stavanger city. The wreck lies approximately about one thousand meters south east of Loten in the western Bokanfjorden, near Stavanger city...

Actually Ju-88 was referring to a different incident in 1945. I've posted on this in the past here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...3&postcount=29

Takeda Shingen · 12-02-06, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GV_Darkata

real game is uman vs uman no uman vs hardwer (stupid IA)
bye bye
sh2 vs Dc is real
sh3 vs stupid IA (DD artificial) no is real
noi ci divertiamo la sera su ubi a combattere sub vs sub, provate anche voi ciao

SH2/DC, regarless of single or multi-play, is a broken shell of a game, with problems too numerous and well-documented to warrant further explaination here. No serious argument can be made to place it on a higher plane of existence than even SH3 single player.

_Seth_ · 12-02-06, 01:46 PM

I stand at ease. Thanx for that info, mate,i wasnt aware of this. I will quote the info given about this other event:

Quote:

The sinking of [U864] was unique in submarine history since both boats were submerged at the time of the attack. [HMS] Venturer detected the Uboat on her ASDIC and developed a good plot using the Type 129 ASDIC in passive mode - to transmit a ping would have given the game away. What Venturer's commanding officer, Lieutenant JS Launders, later described as 'the most shameful periscope drill' on the part of the U-boat, gave him two good sightings of the German's Periscipe. When Launders judged the moment right, he fired four Mk VIII torpedos down the bearing and was rewarded with one hit. When Venturer surfaced, Launders found oil, wooden wreckage and a large metal cylinder, later identified as the container for the Focke-Achegelis FA-330 autogyro: all that remained of U864

So we have two incidents of submerged sub vs. sub action.

Keelbuster · 12-04-06, 06:51 PM

We need wolfpacks. Why can't Ubi bite the bullet and build AI subs with full functionality (leave from port, patrol, surface, dive, attack convoys, deck gun attack, evade)? Sure, it's work, but it's worth it to have the best sub simulation. I can't imagine that they would go through with building another game if they werent' going to give us AI subs/wolfpacks. That is, unless they were looking for a way to squeeze another buck out of us for the SH3 engine.

Kb

edjcox · 12-05-06, 12:02 AM

The new boat had just passed through the Panama Canal. It reached the Pacific and it's green crew was looking foraward to showing off it's stuff.

The two week training respite on the southern end of the Canal improved their abilities and reaction times. The new boat still presented a large outline and was so very easy for the Japanese sub to spot and track. The Gato was not yet shifting course and speed to randomly the Japanese skipper took a bead on her.

A salvo of three ripped through the water just as the cooks assistant tossed the two weighted canvas sacks of garbage into the wake and lit his cigarette...

The first torpedo ripped through the water just 10 yards ahead of the starboard bow. Scanning instinctively towards the direction of the topedo's origin, the cook gasped as he saw the two wakes running dead at him from the starboard just amidships.

The detonations were near simultaneous as the GATO's hull was ripped apart and the second torpedo breached the preassure hull at the control centers level.
She lifted from the water bodily as the deep explosion broke her keel.

The Japanese had surmised the scheduled departure of the Gato. Her agents in Panama had signalled the arrival and departure time. This was one GATO that would never fire a shot against the Japanese Imperial Navy.

It was over wthin minutes, oil, debis and little else remained floating on the surface. Even the Watch crew on the Conning tower and the cooks assistants bodies were mangled and torn asunder.

The skipper of the Gato had been warned about possible Japanese submarines in the area, he had spent the last night at a bar, and was drunkenly asleep. His second officer had just left the deck when the torpedoes struck.......

Sub to Sub combat...... A vital element...

Sailor Steve · 12-05-06, 11:28 AM

What boat? What captain? What Japanese sub and skipper? References?

Or if this is just a story you made up (and it is a pretty good one), it's hardly proof that sub vs sub combat is, as you put it, vital.

Oh, that would be a great game: just out of harbor on first patrol. "Game Over". Cause? "You were torpedoed by a japanese sub."

Threadfin · 12-05-06, 11:47 AM

Sub v sub was not so rare. Both submerged, yes, I understand that was rare, actually, I didn't know of any examples until this thread. But in the Pacific a large number of surfaced Japanese subs were sunk by US subs, including one boat that sank three Japanese subs on a single patrol (Batfish). As far as I know, only one known example of a US sub lost to Japanese sub. I recall in Silent Victory the comment that ironically this US boat was lost to the sub it was sent to intercept.

Batfish's 6th war patrol http://www.ussbatfish.com/patrol-6.html

Threadfin · 12-05-06, 11:51 AM

I echo Steve's questions. What Gato boat was sunk outside Panama? I've not seen this in any source.

I suppose Ed is just painting the picture for us is all.

edjcox · 12-05-06, 11:49 PM

This was a totally fictional writeup....

Some of you take this "Game" far to seriously for your own health.....

I thought the scenario might be of interest and perhaps spur some thoughts in the developers.

I kind of took some of this from one of my Sub books. In the book they survived only by firing off a few flares in the air low to the water between them and their pursuer... Blinded the Japanese and their night optics momentarily, it was enough for the GATO to port over the helm and crash dive... The crew was shook and they took the dive drills and other excersizes between Panama and Pearl more seriously... At depth they ran silent for 4 hours and surfaced in the dawn....

Did the drunk skipper piss you off?? Just a theatric element to elicit emotion.. Must have worked..

Laters..

EJ

12-02-06, 06:27 AM	#19
Corsair Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Toulouse France Posts: 1,140 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	@ Seth : Thks for info, was not aware of this event... __________________ NYGM 3.4A / Living SH3 V5.1 + SH3 Commander

12-02-06, 07:34 AM	#21
Corsair Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Toulouse France Posts: 1,140 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	Re SH3, if you talk about the stock game, I agree the DDs are no real challenge. If you play any supermod, that's another story... I play NYGM myself and can tell you they do a hell of a job chasing you. And GWX beta testers who are experienced players tell us they died more often than what they wanted... PS : sorry my italian not good enough for the end of the post (except "ciao") ... __________________ NYGM 3.4A / Living SH3 V5.1 + SH3 Commander Last edited by Corsair; 12-02-06 at 11:54 AM.

12-04-06, 06:51 PM	#25
Keelbuster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: BA 72 Posts: 1,092 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	We need wolfpacks. Why can't Ubi bite the bullet and build AI subs with full functionality (leave from port, patrol, surface, dive, attack convoys, deck gun attack, evade)? Sure, it's work, but it's worth it to have the best sub simulation. I can't imagine that they would go through with building another game if they werent' going to give us AI subs/wolfpacks. That is, unless they were looking for a way to squeeze another buck out of us for the SH3 engine. Kb __________________

12-05-06, 12:02 AM	#26
edjcox Engineer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Shang Gri La Posts: 219 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	An early demise The new boat had just passed through the Panama Canal. It reached the Pacific and it's green crew was looking foraward to showing off it's stuff. The two week training respite on the southern end of the Canal improved their abilities and reaction times. The new boat still presented a large outline and was so very easy for the Japanese sub to spot and track. The Gato was not yet shifting course and speed to randomly the Japanese skipper took a bead on her. A salvo of three ripped through the water just as the cooks assistant tossed the two weighted canvas sacks of garbage into the wake and lit his cigarette... The first torpedo ripped through the water just 10 yards ahead of the starboard bow. Scanning instinctively towards the direction of the topedo's origin, the cook gasped as he saw the two wakes running dead at him from the starboard just amidships. The detonations were near simultaneous as the GATO's hull was ripped apart and the second torpedo breached the preassure hull at the control centers level. She lifted from the water bodily as the deep explosion broke her keel. The Japanese had surmised the scheduled departure of the Gato. Her agents in Panama had signalled the arrival and departure time. This was one GATO that would never fire a shot against the Japanese Imperial Navy. It was over wthin minutes, oil, debis and little else remained floating on the surface. Even the Watch crew on the Conning tower and the cooks assistants bodies were mangled and torn asunder. The skipper of the Gato had been warned about possible Japanese submarines in the area, he had spent the last night at a bar, and was drunkenly asleep. His second officer had just left the deck when the torpedoes struck....... Sub to Sub combat...... A vital element... __________________ EJ Cox http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...jcox/usaCa.gif

12-05-06, 11:28 AM	#27
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	What boat? What captain? What Japanese sub and skipper? References? Or if this is just a story you made up (and it is a pretty good one), it's hardly proof that sub vs sub combat is, as you put it, vital. Oh, that would be a great game: just out of harbor on first patrol. "Game Over". Cause? "You were torpedoed by a japanese sub." __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

12-01-06, 08:04 PM	#18
BH Loader Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 89 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Agree with the some of the other posters. Sub vs Sub was not a factor in the Second World War. Attacks on the surfaced happened very rarely. The technology simply was not available to conduct submerged attacks against a submerged target. Not to mention that most of the Japanese submarine force never left port as Japanese naval doctrine was to draw the enemy to the open and engage in large surface battles with battleships and heavy cruisers. The naval leadership largely underutilized their submarine force.

12-02-06, 06:51 AM	#20
GV_Darkata Watch Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 25 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	real game is uman vs uman no uman vs hardwer (stupid IA) bye bye sh2 vs Dc is real sh3 vs stupid IA (DD artificial) no is real noi ci divertiamo la sera su ubi a combattere sub vs sub, provate anche voi ciao

12-05-06, 11:47 AM	#28
Threadfin Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,163 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Sub v sub was not so rare. Both submerged, yes, I understand that was rare, actually, I didn't know of any examples until this thread. But in the Pacific a large number of surfaced Japanese subs were sunk by US subs, including one boat that sank three Japanese subs on a single patrol (Batfish). As far as I know, only one known example of a US sub lost to Japanese sub. I recall in Silent Victory the comment that ironically this US boat was lost to the sub it was sent to intercept. Batfish's 6th war patrol http://www.ussbatfish.com/patrol-6.html __________________ What? Behind the rabbit? Last edited by Threadfin; 12-05-06 at 12:07 PM.

12-05-06, 11:51 AM	#29
Threadfin Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,163 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	I echo Steve's questions. What Gato boat was sunk outside Panama? I've not seen this in any source. I suppose Ed is just painting the picture for us is all. __________________ What? Behind the rabbit?

12-05-06, 11:49 PM	#30
edjcox Engineer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Shang Gri La Posts: 219 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	Panama Ghost Boat This was a totally fictional writeup.... Some of you take this "Game" far to seriously for your own health..... I thought the scenario might be of interest and perhaps spur some thoughts in the developers. I kind of took some of this from one of my Sub books. In the book they survived only by firing off a few flares in the air low to the water between them and their pursuer... Blinded the Japanese and their night optics momentarily, it was enough for the GATO to port over the helm and crash dive... The crew was shook and they took the dive drills and other excersizes between Panama and Pearl more seriously... At depth they ran silent for 4 hours and surfaced in the dawn.... Did the drunk skipper piss you off?? Just a theatric element to elicit emotion.. Must have worked.. Laters.. EJ __________________ EJ Cox http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...jcox/usaCa.gif