Flag burning

[Sailor Steve]

This old veteran voted no. If we protect the symbol of freedom by taking away the freedom itself, exactly what have we accomplished?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

This old veteran voted no. If we protect the symbol of freedom by taking away the freedom itself, exactly what have we accomplished?

You have a point, but I grew up in a world where it was illegal to burn the flag, and we were way more free back then than we are now, so I don't think your point is completely valid. Destroying the symbol of your freedom is to destroy freedom itself. The only real people who want to destroy this symbol and take the action to burn it are the very same people that want to see this country fall, so I vote to ban American flag burning alltogether.

Just my 2 cents.

-S

[fredbass]

It's much more than a piece of garment.

The flag represents my country. It's a symbol. We pledge allegiance to it every day. To me, it's just as important as the President and you can't make a public statement threatening the president so to me it's just as important preventing the flag from destruction.

Edited from original version.

[August]

I voted no. People should have the right to burn a flag in a protest. Of course it'd be nice if I had the right to punch them in the nose for doing it.

[fredbass]

Originally Posted by August

I voted no. People should have the right to burn a flag in a protest. Of course it'd be nice if I had the right to punch them in the nose for doing it.

Now come on August, you know that's a double standard, just vote yes like me.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by fredbass

Now come on August, you know that's a double standard

No. August asked for just 1 punch - not 2. :p

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

You have a point, but I grew up in a world where it was illegal to burn the flag...

What world was that, exactly? I don't remember it ever being illegal to burn the flag in America.

...and we were way more free back then than we are now, so I don't think your point is completely valid.

How were we more free back then (assuming I'm wrong above)?

Destroying the symbol of your freedom is to destroy freedom itself.

Again, how so?

The only real people who want to destroy this symbol and take the action to burn it are the very same people that want to see this country fall, so I vote to ban American flag burning alltogether.

I agree about their intentions, but they still have the right to express themselves. To deny that right is to deny a liberty that should remain basic.

Originally Posted by fredbass

The flag represents my country. It's a symbol. We pledge allegiance to it every day. To me, it's just as important as the President and you can't make a public statement threatening the president so to me it's just as important preventing the flag from destruction.

The president is a human being, and one in an important position. We can't threaten him because it's too easy to inspire someone else to carry out that threat. The flag represents our country, and what it stands for. But it's still just a symbol. The founding creed of the United States is individual liberty. To take away any liberty because you don't like what it represents is to begin the erosion of all.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

What world was that, exactly? I don't remember it ever being illegal to burn the flag in America.

How were we more free back then (assuming I'm wrong above)?

Again, how so?

I agree about their intentions, but they still have the right to express themselves. To deny that right is to deny a liberty that should remain basic.

The president is a human being, and one in an important position. We can't threaten him because it's too easy to inspire someone else to carry out that threat. The flag represents our country, and what it stands for. But it's still just a symbol. The founding creed of the United States is individual liberty. To take away any liberty because you don't like what it represents is to begin the erosion of all.

Back in the 70's it was illegal to burn the flag in demonstration. I beleive it was the late 80's or early 90's where the Supreme Court ruled that it was OK.

On the freedom portion - PC is where you right to free speech, etc. is eroding. None of this existed back then. Back then, you just paid a common curtisy to your fellow man. Now you are expected to follow a set guideline depending on whom it is you meet and to step outside of that will bring practically a wraith down on you. As an example, I still don't get why Spanish is becomming a second language in this country and I am still called white, when I can't call anyone else by their skin color. No one calls me European American. It's all PC.

To burn ones flag is to incite revolt, inspire hate,' breed contempt, and its the road away from Nationalism - something that is required to grow as a country. No other way to describe it. I do not think it is a liberty and the Supreme Court shouldn't overturn and allow, but they did.

Try and burn a flag in China and see what happens. They have way more nationalism than we have this day and something such as flag burning would probably get you executed. CHina will take over America if this trend continues.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

To burn ones flag is to incite revolt, inspire hate,' breed contempt...

So is calling the president any number of vile names, which we can do.

...and its the road away from Nationalism - something that is required to grow as a country. No other way to describe it. I do not think it is a liberty and the Supreme Court shouldn't overturn and allow, but they did.

I disagree with you there, but any arguments I could come up with would simply be me disagreeing, not making a case; so I have to leave that one to opinion.

Try and burn a flag in China and see what happens. They have way more nationalism than we have this day and something such as flag burning would probably get you executed. CHina will take over America if this trend continues.

But isn't that what makes us better than China in respect to freedom? Or are you saying we should be more like them?

Part of the American system involves the freedom to gather in public...even for self-proclaimed Nazis in a Jewish suburb. It involves the freedom to publish pictures of the president altered to look like Adolf Hitler. It involves the freedom for people who "hate and loathe" our country to say so in public. It even involves the freedom for my mayor to stage a rally protesting the president when he spoke here, which I found to be in extremely poor taste in a public official. It involves the freedom for me to say I think said mayor-or the president himself-is an idiot.

Yes, burning a flag in China (or Nazi Germany) would get you shot. I thank God I don't live under those kinds of rules. I also get upset when I see someone burn the flag I revere, but as long as it's one they paid for themselves I'll continue to defend their right, not privilege, to do so. The Declaration Of Independence states that our rights are God-given (or natural to us, if you don't believe in any kind of god), and that we form countries to defend those rights. If someone offends us in exercising said rights, that's our problem, as well as theirs. You can't have it both ways; either we're free, or we're not.

[GT182]

by Seed
Take cover Noob don't forget your hard hat.

I second that. It would be the same as burning down your house Noob by protesters...... I suppose you wouldn't object to that would you? Well the flag represents the house you live in, your country you call home, that you live and die for.

[jumpy]

Ignoring some of the essential flag burning of this topic, it's interesting how some react to such elements as burning a national symbol, either your own or somebody else's. I think GT182 sums it up rather clearly:

Well the flag represents the house you live in, your country you call home, that you live and die for

For me I'm not mortally offended if some scrote wants to burn the cross of st George or whatever, I find it somewhat disrespectful in the same way I find some folk who don't know how to close their mouth when eating, disrespectful and impolite. But then again I'm fairly realistic about what, at least the way things work over here; being patriotic about UK is all about. Or rather not about. To put it another way, I call my country home but I don't live and die for it. Perhaps if we were all transported back in time 60 years then I might think differently. I think this has something to do with the perceived or otherwise self effacing attitude that we brits are supposed to have.
American culture seems very different in this respect, perhaps given the nature of a country populated (initially) by european/other immigrants over the last 200 years or so where a sense of a new national identity is actively fostered. More "WOOO-HA! go America!" than the "yes... er quite, jolly good" you might expect from the typical English stereotype.

Whether the UK is richer or poorer for this lack of a strong national identity (outside of the football wa**** mentality) I'm not sure, but as I alluded to in my first post in this thread; we shouldn't make hasty new laws that potentially contradict that grey area we like to call freedom of speech ie. jail people for essentially doing something silly and in so doing making that expression itself a crime, when there are perfectly good laws already to deal with people setting fire to stuff in the middle of the street. All that is required is a modicum of common sense when using existing legislation, not making ill conceived 'headless chicken' laws for the sake of what I like to describe as popular opinion - something no law should be constructed upon.

I don't approve of the lack of gratitude some seem to show for what is their adopted home especially when they are spouting the worst kind of bile imaginable. If you want to complain, go right ahead, it's something of a national pastime for us brits but do it with a little humility - let some of that britishness rub off on you.
But it's that lack of respect (which manifests itself in the flag thing, amongst other ways), the cause and not the action that really annoys me. As I said (and have given some more thought to since) sod off to somewhere where, as an illiterate fanatic, you'll fit right in. Realistically you could be burning rubber chickens for all the difference it makes to any patriotism I might feel. As Neal said, "It's the idea the textile represents" the thing itself is just being used as a lever to polarize feeling, though I feel that most brits, myself included, have a somewhat lukewarm response to such actions**. Given this, these radicals would probably have more luck getting under our collective skin these days by attacking something closer to our hearts. Like taking the PG-Tips chimpanzees hostage, or something.

Lol, that's the trouble with relinquishing an empire that encompassed most of the known world- when all the apologizing for behaving 'like mad dogs and Englishmen in the midday sun' and owning everything and everyone in sight is done, or not having a good old fashioned straight-up enemy like 'Jerry' to focus the nations intent upon, there's just no cohesion anymore. I don't know what is worse sometimes; the lack of clear resolution and consensus in these matters or the fact that people seem to need some greater 'foe' in order to center the nation's intent towards something good and useful for a change.


**
Illustrating this view is an amusing comment from another site, regarding the london bombings. Despite the outcry we were not off at the drop of a hat, invading Afghanistan (oops we're already doing that hehe), er, Pakistan then, because some of the chaps responsible went to alleged terror training camps there or somewhere near by.

The British are feeling the pinch in relation to recent bombings and have raised their security level from "Miffed" to "Peeved." Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross." Londoners have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940, when tea supplies all but ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from "Tiresome" to a "Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued a"Bloody Nuisance" warning level was during the great fire of 1666.

[The Noob]

Originally Posted by GT182

It would be the same as burning down your house Noob by protesters...... I suppose you wouldn't object to that would you?

Nonsense.

Originally Posted by GT182

Well the flag represents the house you live in, your country you call home, that you live and die for.

Nonsense as well. I don't risk my b*tt for a country wich never did anything even nearly the way i think it's good. I don't call "my" country home. My House is my home. To hell with thatever nation. "We" get under attack? Time to leave. At least if the country in question would like to get rid of anyone who thinks like i do. NO country has aquired enought raspect from me to die for it. All a bunch of the worst people around who call themselves politicans. Those can go wherever they want to *meep* off and die. SANE normal people as politicans who don't care for personal gather, that would be *the* country.

No such thing till yet.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

This old veteran voted no. If we protect the symbol of freedom by taking away the freedom itself, exactly what have we accomplished?

Thats pretty much how i feel. I dont beleive in burning our nations flag, but it's a form of expression, and as much as i dont agree with that particular form of expression, you have a right to express yourself.

[STEED]

Democracy gives you the right to protest but too burn your country's flag is like saying to hell with you and your country and your democracy.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

I live in England, let me rephrase that one.

That's my pounds worth.