Can we have a "Pacific Submarine War for Dummies" FAQ?

bookworm_020 · 10-31-06, 10:54 PM

I agree with torplexed on this one, you will have to chnage peoples mindset, maybe the game will do it, but I doubt it.

Ice cream machines I kown about, did you know about the deep fat fryers, and in one case, a slot machine!!

One way of finding if you were lucky or not!

Hylander_1314 · 10-31-06, 11:13 PM

Yes you'll have to adjust your tactics. Japanese convoys were small. The torpedoes stunk, but had a real long range. If they model them, you'll have to be careful about surface attacks with possible armed merchants who wait until you get close enough to blow you out of the water.

Japanese patrol planes like the Rufe (a floatplane version of the Zero), along with the usual Val and long range Zeros which are harder to spot than a PBY or Sunderland.

Hopefully, real Naval engagements like Coral Sea, Midway Bismark Sea, Leyte, the Solomons, etc, etc. Task force picket duty, overt ops, resue missions, and recon. All in the paradise of the South Pcific, while you munch on your ice cream cones from your own onboard Dairy Queen. Since the water purifier constantly breaks down.

Ducimus · 11-01-06, 12:18 AM

I've read alot of Beach's books in the past, and from what i remember, being on a US sub was no walk in the park. HOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTT. LIke 120, 130 degree's. Silent running, no fans, tropical enviorment, nothing but electric motors running, decks covered in sweat, crew stripped to their skivies poping salt tablets. Plus Jap ashcan's were alot bigger then the US counterparts as i recall.

Steeltrap · 11-01-06, 01:28 AM

As it happens I've read plenty about the Pacific Theatre. I've also always been interested in submarines.

It should be clear to all but an idiot that operating far from any friendly assistance, as was always the case in the Pacific due to its dimensions, under conditions where you were always open to attack at any stage - let alone being expected to find targets etc... - would be stressful. Breakdowns of equipment could prove disasterous, although the crews were pretty ingenious at overcoming some fairly challenging issues (I like the one on Wahoo about getting the dentists at Midway to fill in the pits in the sleeve of the periscope which had been tearing the insulation and packing, causing a constant - although small - leak when raised!).

While it is true that the USA subs were far more reasonable in their crew accommodations and facilities than the Germans, that's more a real indictment of the Germans' subs than saying the USA's were pleasure cruisers! Aircon alone made a significant difference, especially in the hot, humid Pacific, where the sea temperature served to increase temperatures. The sweating and salt tablets mentioned were a good indication that things weren't much fun when running silent.

It IS true that the Japanese did not develop their ASW cpabilities anywhere near the extent to which the Allies did. It's NOT true to say they were impotent - 52 subs (or whatever the exact loss figures are) is still plenty, especially given the fact that the USA deployed far fewer subs than did Germany.

The biggest point is that the subs were overwhelmingly successfull in strangling Japan. I think something like 90% of shipping from mid-44 onwards failed to reach their destinations.....90%!!!! Japan received NO oil shipments in 1945. Thos examples say it all - the subs of the USA were responsible for the most successful interdiction campaign by submarine anywhere, ever. Period.

So, 'easier' than the Atlantic? On balance, yes. 'Easy'? No. Less challenging? Possibly, but had plenty of challenges unique to the conditions.

Done well, the sim should be excellent, interesting and challenging. Same as Atlantic? No. Is that a bad thing? Not at all.

ook · 11-01-06, 05:32 AM

"Silent Victory: The U.S. Submarine War Against Japan" by Clay Blair <- the best FAQ ever. ;-)

Sawdust · 11-01-06, 07:00 AM

I'm going to have to read up on the submarine war in the Pacific, too, as I don't know much about it. (Just think, there're lots of good movies about the Battle of the Atlantic, but the only Pacific sub movie I can think of is "Operation Petticoat"! :p)

Did the Japanese have any type of sonar? That's a big part of the SHIII game. Maybe the Japanese could still find you by hydrophone when you are trying to hide...but would the enemy's abilities have to be artificially increased to improve gameplay?

cmdrk · 11-01-06, 10:46 AM

One thing to remember is the numbers between the Atlantic and Pacific. The number of ships and subs involved was much greater in the Atlantic which is smaller than the Pacific. The ship densities makes the Pacific numbers smaller. If the density matched the Atlantic, I suspect the tonnage sunk / subs lost to be much closer.
Stealing a line from a movie, Its like comparing apples and oranges, but its all fruit.

Yes the Japanese had sonar, not every escort did, but often one ship did in a convoy. They also had radar dispersed in a like manner.

Other Pacific sub movies - Run Silent, Run Deep - Torpedo Run - Destination Tokyo. Older films with varying value.

John Pancoast · 12-01-06, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ook

"Silent Victory: The U.S. Submarine War Against Japan" by Clay Blair <- the best FAQ ever. ;-)

Yep !

10-31-06, 10:54 PM	#1
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I agree with torplexed on this one, you will have to chnage peoples mindset, maybe the game will do it, but I doubt it. Ice cream machines I kown about, did you know about the deep fat fryers, and in one case, a slot machine!! One way of finding if you were lucky or not! __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

10-31-06, 11:13 PM	#2
Hylander_1314 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2006 Location: 5 Miles Inland West Of Lake Huron Posts: 1,936 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Yes you'll have to adjust your tactics. Japanese convoys were small. The torpedoes stunk, but had a real long range. If they model them, you'll have to be careful about surface attacks with possible armed merchants who wait until you get close enough to blow you out of the water. Japanese patrol planes like the Rufe (a floatplane version of the Zero), along with the usual Val and long range Zeros which are harder to spot than a PBY or Sunderland. Hopefully, real Naval engagements like Coral Sea, Midway Bismark Sea, Leyte, the Solomons, etc, etc. Task force picket duty, overt ops, resue missions, and recon. All in the paradise of the South Pcific, while you munch on your ice cream cones from your own onboard Dairy Queen. Since the water purifier constantly breaks down. __________________ A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law. -John Marshall Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ---------------------

11-01-06, 07:00 AM	#6
Sawdust Planesman Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Quadrant DB22 Posts: 198 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'm going to have to read up on the submarine war in the Pacific, too, as I don't know much about it. (Just think, there're lots of good movies about the Battle of the Atlantic, but the only Pacific sub movie I can think of is "Operation Petticoat"! :p) Did the Japanese have any type of sonar? That's a big part of the SHIII game. Maybe the Japanese could still find you by hydrophone when you are trying to hide...but would the enemy's abilities have to be artificially increased to improve gameplay? __________________ .-. --- ..- --. .... ... . .- ... .- .... . .- -..

11-01-06, 12:18 AM	#3
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I've read alot of Beach's books in the past, and from what i remember, being on a US sub was no walk in the park. HOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTT. LIke 120, 130 degree's. Silent running, no fans, tropical enviorment, nothing but electric motors running, decks covered in sweat, crew stripped to their skivies poping salt tablets. Plus Jap ashcan's were alot bigger then the US counterparts as i recall.

11-01-06, 01:28 AM	#4
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	As it happens I've read plenty about the Pacific Theatre. I've also always been interested in submarines. It should be clear to all but an idiot that operating far from any friendly assistance, as was always the case in the Pacific due to its dimensions, under conditions where you were always open to attack at any stage - let alone being expected to find targets etc... - would be stressful. Breakdowns of equipment could prove disasterous, although the crews were pretty ingenious at overcoming some fairly challenging issues (I like the one on Wahoo about getting the dentists at Midway to fill in the pits in the sleeve of the periscope which had been tearing the insulation and packing, causing a constant - although small - leak when raised!). While it is true that the USA subs were far more reasonable in their crew accommodations and facilities than the Germans, that's more a real indictment of the Germans' subs than saying the USA's were pleasure cruisers! Aircon alone made a significant difference, especially in the hot, humid Pacific, where the sea temperature served to increase temperatures. The sweating and salt tablets mentioned were a good indication that things weren't much fun when running silent. It IS true that the Japanese did not develop their ASW cpabilities anywhere near the extent to which the Allies did. It's NOT true to say they were impotent - 52 subs (or whatever the exact loss figures are) is still plenty, especially given the fact that the USA deployed far fewer subs than did Germany. The biggest point is that the subs were overwhelmingly successfull in strangling Japan. I think something like 90% of shipping from mid-44 onwards failed to reach their destinations.....90%!!!! Japan received NO oil shipments in 1945. Thos examples say it all - the subs of the USA were responsible for the most successful interdiction campaign by submarine anywhere, ever. Period. So, 'easier' than the Atlantic? On balance, yes. 'Easy'? No. Less challenging? Possibly, but had plenty of challenges unique to the conditions. Done well, the sim should be excellent, interesting and challenging. Same as Atlantic? No. Is that a bad thing? Not at all.

11-01-06, 05:32 AM	#5
ook Seaman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Poland Posts: 38 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	"Silent Victory: The U.S. Submarine War Against Japan" by Clay Blair <- the best FAQ ever. ;-)

11-01-06, 10:46 AM	#7
cmdrk Planesman Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 184 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	One thing to remember is the numbers between the Atlantic and Pacific. The number of ships and subs involved was much greater in the Atlantic which is smaller than the Pacific. The ship densities makes the Pacific numbers smaller. If the density matched the Atlantic, I suspect the tonnage sunk / subs lost to be much closer. Stealing a line from a movie, Its like comparing apples and oranges, but its all fruit. Yes the Japanese had sonar, not every escort did, but often one ship did in a convoy. They also had radar dispersed in a like manner. Other Pacific sub movies - Run Silent, Run Deep - Torpedo Run - Destination Tokyo. Older films with varying value.