In your humble opinion

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Here are the Alfa specs:

Laid down: 1974 Launched: 1977 Commissioned: 1977 General Characteristics Displacement: 2300 tons surfaced, 3200 tonnes submerged Length: 81.4 metres Beam: 9.5 metres Draught: 7.6 metres Propulsion: OK-155 or BM-40A, 155-MWt Lead cooled fast reactor
40000 shp steam turbine, one shaft Speed: 18-24 knots surfaced, 43-45 knots submerged Depth: 800 m test, 1300 m crush Complement: 27 officers, 4 petty officers Armament: Six 533-mm (21-inch) torpedo tubes:
18 SET-65 or 53-65K torpedoes
20 VA-111 Shkval torpedoes
21 SS-N-15 cruise missiles
12 SS-N-16 cruise missiles
24 mines

1300 meters = 4265 feet (That is deep)

45 knots is damn fast too. that is just barely over 51 MPH. Getting close to torpedo territory.

At that speed it would not trigger additional attention if they had attached a siren to the nose like those StuKas once had.

[JSLTIGER]

Originally Posted by Skybird

At that speed it would not trigger additional attention if they had attached a siren to the nose like those StuKas once had.

Plus, the Alfas have all been withdrawn from service. I'm forced to agree with ASWNut101: Seawolf.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

At that speed it would not trigger additional attention if they had attached a siren to the nose like those StuKas once had.

The Alfa isn't a quiet sub anyway. They created the Mk48 to go to 3000 feet+ just to catch it since I don't think stealth was on the drawingboard when this thing was designed. It was designed to come in, do its business, and then get the heck out of dodge before it could be attacked. at 45 knots, a torp would have a hard time catching it was the idea.

-S

[Kapitan]

Dont want to spoil the fun here but the al'fa could only dive to 750 meters it was the mike class which was routinely diving beyond 1,100 meters.

The alfa was a interceptor submarine not designed to take on any submarines but to take on small task groups by out diving and out running weapons and ships.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

The Alfa isn't a quiet sub anyway. They created the Mk48 to go to 3000 feet+ just to catch it since I don't think stealth was on the drawingboard when this thing was designed. It was designed to come in, do its business, and then get the heck out of dodge before it could be attacked. at 45 knots, a torp would have a hard time catching it was the idea.

-S

Yes, and while it is racing, it is deaf like my dead grandpa. Such tactics are not my cup of tea. I prefer to be a ghost. And when I think of it, I played almost all sims, even strategy games that way, hell, it's even true for my way of playing chess, in a way. Takes more time, but gives me victory with far lesser losses, usually. One can only hit what one can see.

[ASWnut101]

Subman, I said deepest diving in the US fleet

And I garentee you that the Seawolf goes ATLEAST 40+ knots. Does the Al'fa have a 20 knot tactical speed, too?

Yes the 212 is good, but its like a kilo:

Uses bateries (you can call them that, i know they are hydrogen motors, like the cars)
problably not very deep diving
slow
not under-ice capeable
short range (dosent even break 10,000 miles, i think)

212 is the modern kilo: good for littorials but poor choice for extended open ocean ops.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

Subman, I said deepest diving in the US fleet

And I garentee you that the Seawolf goes ATLEAST 40+ knots. Does the Al'fa have a 20 knot tactical speed, too?

Yes the 212 is good, but its like a kilo:

Uses bateries (you can call them that, i know they are hydrogen motors, like the cars)
problably not very deep diving
slow
not under-ice capeable
short range (dosent even break 10,000 miles, i think)

212 is the modern kilo: good for littorials but poor choice for extended open ocean ops.

A 212 traveled from Germnany to Rota and back - submerged. Official depth is 400m, assumed crush depth is 700m. Even expert sites vary massively in their opinion on how long it can run submerged, and how far it can reach. That is understandable, for we can safely assume that the German navy keeps this data secret. So when you read this or that value anywhere, take it with a grain of salt. I repeatedly heard, red and saw on TV that the sub at least satys up to 3 weeks underwater. but again - read what I just said before.

In German service and use, the boat is planned as a globally acting intel-platform. Draw your conclusions. even a much smaller Type 206 has travelled into the Carebean some years ago to participate in a local excercise.

I think it is not a bad cjhoice for open water operation assuming it is dueling with another boat, in such a duel duel it would be an exceptionally good choice - for it is quieter than any nuke boat, and open water means there is no terrain around where you can hide (however, of course it can be outrunned by nuclear boats with their higher maximum speeds). Under such combat conditions one would assume: the quieter the better. But since a 212 is not meant to chase after a racing enemy, open water operations are probably not really it's domain. On the other hand: in world war 2 german boats managed to score their hits even on fast moving convoys and warships by appropriate planning and approach.

[Linton]

Skybird the critical piece of information you ommited is how long it took!My guess a ouple of weeks.I am sure they would not run down the English channel submerged.
The most important ting about speed is noise.There is no point being quick if you are noisy and cannot hear anybody else.
The reason the RN went for pumpjets was noise-their missions emphasised noise reduction not speed.

[Skybird]

The trip from Eckernförde to Rota took 2 weeks, all submerged. Took place in spring this year. I think they evaded the channel and went around England. Why sending a sub through the channel...?

The published maximum speed is 20 kn, so we can safely assume it is capable of driving faster, the real speed is probaly as secret as is the maximum depth. I repeatedly red or heared it reported that the boat remains to be a hole in the water at speeds up to 12-15 knots. For lower speeds, the AIP is used. for higher and maximum speeds, it needs to switch to traditonal Diesel engine. Of course, the navy does not comment. such information could be assumed to be secret. The hull steel is anti-magnetic, additonally the boat is equipped with electromagnetic devices that are capable to mimic Earth'S magnetic field and neutralize any boat-caused deviations from the natural magnetic field. It seems that MAD sensors and the like have a tough time to find this one. Add to this the silent AIP engine and the revolutionary new propeller which often has been said to be non-cavitating and ultra-quiet even at maximum speed, and you have the reasons why this boat is often described to be the most silent one currently in service.

The export version 214 does not have these anti-magnetic features, and it's electrinics and sensor suits are said to be downgraded a bit. The 214 is a bit longer, though. Foreign customerds also demanded the added ability to equip them with additional weaponry, including cruise missiles. 214 compares to the 212 like the 209 compared to the 206, which is the more sophisticated boat compared to the export version 209 and Dolphin (the latter has been refitted with electronics by the only customer, the Israelis).

Main armament is the Seehecht (sea hake) torpedoe with a maximum range of 50 km, speed of 50-55 knots and a warhead of 260-280 kg. It is glass-fibre wired.

The fourth boat is scheduled to enter service in German navy by the end of this year. Addtionally to these four boats, last month, I think it was last month, two additonal units have been ordered by the navy, they will see upgrades, and the old 212 are now called 212A for that reason. This order makes sense: with only two international navy operations (East Africa and Lebanon) the german navy is almost fully occupied (for needing to rotate units in and out) and no additonal assets are free for international commitements or intel gathering operations. This again is a hint that the 212 is capable to operate outside litoral waters and not only close to the homeland. The fuel cells cannot be replenished underway, but are only used when submerged and at slow speeds. When there is no need to drive submerged all the time (while in trasnit, for example), I think these boats can reach really far, since they are much bigger than the old 206, but only have a crew of below 30. an often quoted estimation on range is 15000 km at 8 kn at surface, and 800 km when exlusively using the AIP at 8 kn which probably is around the upper limit of the speed where the AIP can drive the boat (if using regular Diesel when submerged, it reaches far wider, but I do not know any estimation for that). note that the drive is an electrical drive when submerged, the ifference is how it is powered: AIP, or diesel. the AIP does run the Diesel, nor could the Diesel replenish the AIP.

Many sites hold info about the 212A, for example, here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...e/type-212.htm
However, they all necessarily depend on unclassified info only, of course.