french and terroism

[scandium]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

Give me an exmaple of UN sanction that force a country to stop anything, you try with North Korea, Irak and other and what was the result?.
Governement dindn't care about UN sanction and this is the poeple of those country who suffer and then support their gvt by the way (this is just improve the Nationalism).
So before voting an another useless UN sanction we can try to speak then if ther is not response, time to make a UN vote and get an another useless text.

Can't help but agree with you completely on this, as well as what you said above about terrorism not having been invented on 9/11 as so many seem to think and act as though it was, and also agree that the only effective way to fight terrorism is with police, intel, and special forces - and not regular armies, airforce, and cruise missles. And even then, with the right tools (police, intel, etc) we are still only fighting the symptoms but we are at least doing that much effectively and not making it any worse.

That is what is so wrong with both the US and Israeli approach to terrorism, though the Israelis at least have more experience with it, their methods have accomplished zero in the last 70 years while in the meantime, by their own admission, in having spent so many years doing little else besides harrassing old women at check points and bulldozing homes, their combat readiness and effectiveness had become so diminished that even they admit that their "elite" military units got their asses handed to them by the overwhelmingly numerically and technologically inferior Hezbollah "army" as soon as the ground war began (and this despite several weeks of softening them up with an intensive, prolonged, and indiscrimate bombing campaign).

The US government has simply imported the proven failure of the Israeli approach to anti-terrorism, but with none of their experience or willingness to go the distance regardless of whether or not it works (since for Israel it is life or death, right or wrong, while for the US the nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan were purely optional overseas adventures that the American people seems to be losing their taste for) and in Iraq and Afghanistan, both disasters, we are seeing the consequences while year after year the statistics on terrorist attacks continue to rise worldwide.

And, as you point out, all that tough talk, bullying, and sanctions accomplish is to instill strenghthened support for the very government one seeks to isolate/overthrow, and promote nationalism which is an especially dangerous thing in places like Iran where a rise in anti-Americanism and nationalism will have a direct effect on the people's willingness to support and undertake terrorist attacks against the West... we are merely engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy now where we have become so afraid and belligerent toward this vast "them" that we only encourage the very acts we think are fighting. And again Iraq, where terrorism was virtually unknown before the US invaded it (after a decade of sanctions), has become the poster child that symbolizes exactly why the US approach is a failure and what the consequences are (increased instability, increased violence, increased terrorism, and an emergent unstable Islamic theocracy that will be a better breeding and training ground than Afghanistan ever was even before 9/11).

Anyway, end of rant for now.

[The Avon Lady]

That's funny!

Most of us Israelis here recognize that what hasn't worked with terrorists is appeasing them, promising them a state, trusting the papers they sign, etc.

Otherwise, lots of things have worked excellently with terrorism, especially when military action is employed and not in response to events but prior to them.

Once again, Scandium's got it backwards.

[Immacolata]

Again, the problem is we still haven't a proper definition of terrorists.
But let us assume the terrorists are the fundamentalist type, the ones who do it in the name of God. Agree AL, you cannot paper out of that one. But that isn't because they cannot be negotiated with. Their price is just too high.

If Israel wants the terrorists off its back, it needs to evacuate the land of Israel. So that is clearly not negotiable. And that is all the terrorists want. Nothing less will satisfy them. So the conflict is unsolveable by peaceful methods untill one party backs down from impossible demands. But who should that be? Who will blink first?

In my eyes the palestinian people has suffered many more years than needed, precisely because they keep claimining things that are now lost. Possession is 9/10ths of the law I hear quoted often. They do not want to face facts, it is a hollow pride.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

That's funny!

Most of us Israelis here recognize that what hasn't worked with terrorists is appeasing them, promising them a state, trusting the papers they sign, etc.

Otherwise, lots of things have worked excellently with terrorism, especially when military action is employed and not in response to events but prior to them.

Once again, Scandium's got it backwards.

Really? Tell me then, how many countries have tiny Israel's per capita rate of domestic, done on Israeli soil, terrorist attacks? How many other countries bulldoze, per capita, the number of homes that Israel does? How many first world countries have the ~40% unemployment rate that is enjoyed by your segregated and disenfranchised Palestinian population? How many countries detain, without trial and per capita, the number of people that Israel does? How many 21st century countries are building the kind of midieval style walls that Israel is building? And how many 1st world countries practice the kind of pre-Mendalla Apartheid that is practiced in Israel? And how many 1st world countries routinely use their airforce to bomb targets within their own borders?

Yet you think your approach is working? Why then does your country resemble so much more of a police state than any other 1st world country in the World? And before you simply blame the Muslim Palestinians, recall that other countries (such as France, the US, possibly Germany, and many others) have far more Muslims living within their borders yet use none of your methods and have none of your problems. So clearly what have you've been doing for the last 70 years hasn't worked, and the attempts at a paper Palestinian state that has never gone anywhere is a red herring. Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

The history of Europe is one that is far bloodier than that of Israel's, yet you don't see Germany expelling French citizens, or Spain bombing Portugal. Not that the rest of us have entirely clean hands at home or abroad, but your country seems unique in its ability to spend decades fighting the same battle with the same tactics with absolutely no insight into the fact that they've accomplished little beyond exporting your domestiv conflict to the rest of the globe. Of course you don't see this and are the forum cheerleader for blaming all the worlds ills on the mostly powerless and many places all but enslaved Muslims; personally I'm more inclined to lay the blame at the only 1st world country that makes ethnicity/religion a prerequisite for citizenship (among other benefits) and in that regard places itself into the same category as Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, enjoys a foreign aid budget that dwarfs that of any other country and which it has no longer any need for and devotes almost exclusively to weapons that it uses to destroy defenseless neighbours like Lebanon, which is ironically one of the most progressive countries in the region and a natural trading partner and ally if only your government, having only a hammer, didn't see every problem as though it were a nail. But you do. And then you expect the rest of us to clean up your mess and continue to make the annual welfare payments as well (while bailing you out of the UN court everytime you smash something else).

I think we'd see a lot more peace and a lot less terrorism if simply we started treating Israel more like an adult and less like a spoiled teenager.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by scandium

Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

You really believe this? You never cease to amaze me.You are like talking to a wall...a wall with no eyes or ears...no eyes to see the hate from the muslim world nor ears to hear the CHANTS of DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL......I know it does not bother you because it has not affected you yet in whatever tiny crack of Canada you live in but perhaps when some 2-3000 people are killed in one swoop in your country you may change your perceptions but I don't think it will...You are just smoking the pipe and dreaming of a peaceful world....ahh the dream...can't we all just get along.Sniff sNiff I think I'm gonna cry.

What is reality?....Reality is stravation and death and war....wake up and smell the dream Scand.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by Iceman

You really believe this? You never cease to amaze me.You are like talking to a wall...a wall with no eyes or ears...no eyes to see the hate from the muslim world nor ears to hear the CHANTS of DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL......I know it does not bother you because it has not affected you yet in whatever tiny crack of Canada you live in but perhaps when some 2-3000 people are killed in one swoop in your country you may change your perceptions but I don't think it will...You are just smoking the pipe and dreaming of a peaceful world....ahh the dream...can't we all just get along.Sniff sNiff I think I'm gonna cry.

What is reality?....Reality is stravation and death and war....wake up and smell the dream Scand.

Couldn't agree more, Iceman but you cry, I'll just puck over his post.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Iceman

You really believe this? You never cease to amaze me.You are like talking to a wall...a wall with no eyes or ears...no eyes to see the hate from the muslim world nor ears to hear the CHANTS of DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL......I know it does not bother you because it has not affected you yet in whatever tiny crack of Canada you live in but perhaps when some 2-3000 people are killed in one swoop in your country you may change your perceptions but I don't think it will...You are just smoking the pipe and dreaming of a peaceful world....ahh the dream...can't we all just get along.Sniff sNiff I think I'm gonna cry.

What is reality?....Reality is stravation and death and war....wake up and smell the dream Scand.

Oh I hear the chants alright, the difference is that unlike so many others I take the time to ask the question why and then explore it to find out. And, again, unlike others here I know the answer is not in the Koran, and that if that is as far as you're willing to look for the answer then you'll ignorant and prejudiced you will be, in fact, you will be little different from the fanatics on the other side since this is one of the fundamental tenets of fanaticism (and it is not a "Muslim" thing; it is a xenophobic, ignorant, and intolerant thing that doesn't depend on religion but can use religion, nationalism, or just about any other ideology or 'bond' as a means to an end).

You hear the word "Muslim" and you automatically associate it with the Jihadists on 9/11 or the woman in Burqa in Iran; I hear the word "Muslim" and I think of the Muslims who I work with who dress, act, and speak the same as you and me and who are not chanting "death to America" or "death to Israel"; rather, they are living the same lives as you and I with the same goals and the same dreams. In Iran, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, etc I imagine most of them have the same goals and dreams too, but none of the opportunities and some, or maybe many of them, are also taught, just as you have so obviously been taught, to fear and loathe "the enemy".

Sure some of them are chanting "death to Israel" and death to "America", and meanwhile Israel has recently killed several thousand Lebanese civilians in its "war on terror" while the US likely has the blood of 100,000+ Iraqis on its hands as well... and you wonder why? Yet of course you get a free pass because for them it is "terrorism" and they are "Muslim", while we are "Christian" or "Jewish" and can call it "collateral damage"... such nice neat categories for the same kind of ****.

And yeah 9/11 came before Iraq, and they've been chanting those slogans long before March/03, but our various bloody "interventions" in the region also goes way back to long before 9/11 as well. Recall Bin Laden used to be one of our guys and we armed, trained, and created the very mujahadeen that now goes by the name Al Qaeda... things are not as cut and dry as you'd like to believe they are, and the world isn't a place where there are only two kinds of people who are either "good" and "evil" or "Muslim" and "everyone else"; though its exactly that kind of thinking that underscores extremism of all forms no matter what its ideology, nationality, or rationalization. But keep thinking as you do, I know I'm not going to persuade you to think any differently as you have your nice neat little categories and they make things vert simple for you... just keep in mind that some of simply see people as people and we don't all lump people into neat little categories based solely on their religion, nationality, race, or political party.

[Edit] Have to leave for work soon, so I'll get to you later AL

[Immacolata]

Scandium, it doesn't really matter if it is found in the quran or it is found by those who interpret the quran in a certain way. The terrorists who use Allah as their justification could not have done so without the quran, right? The evil is done by the evil doer, not his knife. But take away his knife and he'd have to come up with something else. Or maybe not being inspired in the first place.

I am sure there are socio economic explanations up to both ears, but unlike national economy and traditional warfare, the acts of individuals are a bit harder to just ascribe to material factors. There is a will, too, a will to lash out and harm other people, instead of choosing not to lash out and harming other people.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

Really? Tell me then, how many countries have tiny Israel's per capita rate of domestic, done on Israeli soil, terrorist attacks?

I don't know and I don't care.

What I do know is that successful terrorist attacks shot through the roof whenever politicos told the military to withdraw/retreat/relax/show leniency, etc. There's a simple pattern here.

We will continue to have such high rates of terrorism as long as the Arabs and Muslims have "wipe Israel off the face of the earth" on their checklist. Other than packing our bags and leaving or committing mass national suicide, however, a tough and vicious military approach, with the right tactics, has been the best solution against these barbarians. Of course, the disdain and morally bankrupt hypocrisy we receive from westerners like yourself are one of the biggest contributors to the morale and justification for terrorists to keep on killing and maiming us and eventually you, too, as you will unfortunately find out if the world keeps turning the way it has for the last 3 decades.

How many other countries bulldoze, per capita, the number of homes that Israel does?

Another often helpful tactic. Now think about how much more terrorism there would have been had Israel said to terrorists, their families and their accomplices that no matter how much terror you throw at us Israelis, we will just turn the other cheek like the good Christians the world wants us to be, though no one else would ever be stupid enough to practice this thenmselves.

How many first world countries have the ~40% unemployment rate that is enjoyed by your segregated and disenfranchised Palestinian population?

Now you should be telling the Arabs that terrorism doesn't pay. But you don't. It's all Israel's fault, ain't it? Boo hoo!

How many countries detain, without trial and per capita, the number of people that Israel does?

Well, how many countries are in Israel's situation and if they were I'd say this would have to be much of a necessity under wartime-like circumstances. Once again, boo hoo. Cry the poor terrorists!

How many 21st century countries are building the kind of midieval style walls that Israel is building?

I don't know but for a mideival structure, it's working pretty well. Again, another working solution, though I don't believe it's positioned in the right place.

And how many 1st world countries practice the kind of pre-Mendalla Apartheid that is practiced in Israel?

We have no separate buses, hospitals, doctors, restaurants, benches, etc., for Israel's Arab citizens. Arabs are fully represented by their duly elected parliamentary members in Israel's Knesset. But you wouldn't know that, would you. In fact, I would question whether you know what apartheid was altogether at this point.

And how many 1st world countries routinely use their airforce to bomb targets within their own borders?

Make up you mind. Gaza, Judea and Samaria are within our borders? Thank you. I'll call up Mr. Olmert and update him.

Yet you think your approach is working? Why then does your country resemble so much more of a police state than any other 1st world country in the World?

Because we're in a pepetual war. But considering the circumstances, my kids can go out on the streets and play, safer than in most N. American cities, we can shop and travel and what not quite safely for the most part today. It wasn't like that a decade and less ago, when we tried your stupid methods of appeasement, compromise and unilateral concessions, which only made things worse.

And that's exactly the point I was arguing with about you but you didn't catch. It's sort of reminds me of the Orwell quote in your sig. :hmm:

And before you simply blame the Muslim Palestinians,

I'm an equal opportunity employer. I blame Christian and Marxist Pals no less.

recall that other countries (such as France, the US, possibly Germany, and many others) have far more Muslims living within their borders yet use none of your methods and have none of your problems.

Just wait and see. Time will tell. Tell me, are you familiar with Islam's laws regarding land previously claimed as Muslim land? We are not in Canada, Toto.

So clearly what have you've been doing for the last 70 years hasn't worked, and the attempts at a paper Palestinian state that has never gone anywhere is a red herring. Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

Of course. Sure. They've proved how stable and peace loving they are. All those explicite proclamations, to this very day, in the PLOs, Hamas' and Hizballah's charters about Israel's destruction, can simply be ignored. Like Neville Chamberlain, you wish to wave another piece of paper or two in our direction and tell us that everything's going to be alright.

But there already is and has been a Palestinian state for over 70 years. Its name is Jordan. The majority of its population is and always was "Palestinian." Yes, those quotes are intential. You figure it out.

The history of Europe is one that is far bloodier than that of Israel's, yet you don't see Germany expelling French citizens,

Germany lost. Both sides also ceased hostilities. That's because the wars were decisively won, something the world doesn't permit Israel to do, nor does Israel itself understand anymore that it has to.
[/quote]or Spain bombing Portugal. Not that the rest of us have entirely clean hands at home or abroad, but your country seems unique in its ability to spend decades fighting the same battle with the same tactics with absolutely no insight into the fact that they've accomplished little beyond exporting your domestiv conflict to the rest of the globe.[/quote]
On the contrary. It's the hypocritical world, that gives the terrorists their ongoing support, money and motivation that keeps them going.

Had the world stood shoulder to shoulder decades ago and said we don't recognize the idea of a state run by people who blow up airplanes, buses, schools, houses and restaurants full of people, who slaughter unarmed Olympic participants, who blow up embassies, who continue to proclaim to this very day in all of their national charters that Israel must be destroyed - well, sir, you see, its thugs like you that support the beasts who are the most to blame. Shame on the likes of you.

Of course you don't see this and are the forum cheerleader for blaming all the worlds ills on the mostly powerless and many places all but enslaved Muslims;

Boo hoo. Muslims peacful people. Boo hoo.

[Skybird]

Hopeless with him, AL.

sunday night we had a TV late news show, a report about the upcoming conferenc between the government and muslim organizations in germany. It is planned to push for Islamic education and Muslim religion lessons in public schools. This already is practiced in some public schools in two federal states in the south-west. They reported from a first class that had the very first of such lesson for the children, and little children were singing "Islam bedeutet Frieden, Islam bedeutet Frieden" (Islam means peace). A wrong translation, or an intentional lie? Islam means subjugation, whereas the word salaam means peace. However, if something starts with such naive and infantile distortions already at the very beginning, I know to whose costs this all will go. One may argue what to teach little children instead, if the history of Islam is such a violant one. Starting with the massacre on the market place in Medina, maybe? But this only illustrates the very problem: Islam is nothing that should be tought at all. Especially not with public money at public schools in non-Islamic countries. Noone would have the idea to teach nazism at public schools, hoping to prevent future Neo-Nazis to turn into violant supporters of Neonazis, and singing "Hitler is a good, loving uncle" (sorry Neal) or "Fascism means tolerance and freedom". It's an idiotic attempt. The ideology of Nazism simply does not include the concept of tolerance and freedom. And the ideology of Islam does not include the idea of tolerant coexistence with non-Islamic cultures. Like the Nazis have separated all man into Herrenrasse and Untermenschen, Islam has separated all mankind into Muhammedan masters and infidel slaves (consequently Islamic nations developed the greatest slave-holding culture there ever was, and slave trading is still existent in africa, until today). the demand for slaves sometimes was so great that muslim factions attacked and enslaved other muslim factions, in africa for the main, accusing them of not being true muhammedans. singing "Islam means peace" does not change all that a bit. It only helps to hide the problem, and deceive the infidels. when these little kids have grown up, they still will be convinced, as they have learned that helping to spread Islam is just for the best of mankind and is helping peace. A peace defined as thge unquestioned rulership of Islam eveywhere.

It's like putting a rope around our neck, assuming it is a decorative scarf.

[scandium]

Let's skip the usual line by line and fastforward to the meet:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

On the contrary. It's the hypocritical world, that gives the terrorists their ongoing support, money and motivation that keeps them going.

Had the world stood shoulder to shoulder decades ago and said we don't recognize the idea of a state run by people who blow up airplanes, buses, schools, houses and restaurants full of people, who slaughter unarmed Olympic participants, who blow up embassies, who continue to proclaim to this very day in all of their national charters that Israel must be destroyed - well, sir, you see, its thugs like you that support the beasts who are the most to blame. Shame on the likes of you.

Shame on the likes of me eh? Those two paragraphs go to the heart of yours, Sybirds, and other's historical relativism where you can pick and choose the "good parts" while ignoring the parts not so kind to you and yours; let us not forget that the world didn't begin when the state of Israel was proclaimed, nor can you beat the drums so righteously about the enemies methods when your own history includes the very same tactics going back long before the creation of the Israeli state. In fact while Canadians and the rest of the world were fighting Nazi Germany your "democratic" predecessors were routinely carrying out terrorist attacks against the British while they were fighting the Nazis (one such faction even going so far as to pledge alegience to Hitler as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"). Then there is the fact that a wanted terrorist by the British went on to become your first PM. Nice history, and you have the gall to compare your Nazi like tactics against the Palestians as part of some global mythical struggle against "Islamofacism".

And while you were destroying Lebanon piece by piece and seeking UN support you still took time out to celebrate the anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel and comemorate it, and the hundreds of British nationals killed in it by Jewish radicals disguised as Muslims, with a nice little plague - how very civilized and noble of you.

And as to the Palestinian Parliment, would that be the one that your IDF routinely kidnaps and holds its representatives indefinitely in detention of? Yeah some parliment, some freedom you grant the Palestinians from under your boot.

You are really not so different from your enemy; you claim a right to a piece of land as sacred based purely upon religious doctrine, and which you have no other ties to yet will cling to it by any means available, no matter how brutal. If you go back a few decades before 1949 your numbers there were tiny, the sins your people having had suffered being caused by Europeans, not Muslims, and Israel was to be a refuge from the tyranny that Europeans, not Muslims, had for centuries exacted upon you. It wasn't until the locals realized that you'd come not to simply live among them, but to take the land from them, that the **** hit the fan.

Now Skybird and his ilk see Muslims emigrating to Europe, and Germany specifically, and his fears seem to amount to exactly that which your people had done in what was then Palestine... funny how this sort of projection works, and it would be funnier still if they in fact did have such designs and were ever successful, since then things would truly have gone full circle (seeing how the state of Israel was granted largely based upon Western guilt for the crimes we'd allowed Nazi Germany to inflict upon European Jews).

To me Israel is no victim, instead you are part of the root cause of the problem. Though as I said before, if you were ever to lose the annual welfare cheque you receive from the US and blanket UN veto then you might, just might, be forced to change your ways enough to get along with your neighbours - I know they're not the best bunch one could hope for, but you did pick them; and most sane people, upon moving to a bad neighbourhood, would either work to clean it up and make it better or simply pack up and move. Your country, however, is not sane, being founded and based solely upon irrational religious dogma, and chooses instead to build fences, blow things up, play the victim, and blame the rest of the world for either opposing you or appeasing the enemies that you yourself have made.

[The Avon Lady]

Another day, another venom spew by Scandium, mimicking the best of Indymedia, Democratic Undergorund, Common Dreams, Rense, And World Socialists forum gossip, down to the same terminology and examples. Oh well.

Originally Posted by scandium

Let's skip the usual line by line and fastforward to the meet:

Shame on the likes of me eh?

Yes.

Those two paragraphs go to the heart of yours, Sybirds, and other's historical relativism where you can pick and choose the "good parts" while ignoring the parts not so kind to you and yours; let us not forget that the world didn't begin when the state of Israel was proclaimed,

Gosh darn! Really! And when did anyone say that? Oh but we didn't. But this is standard for the par................

nor can you beat the drums so righteously about the enemies methods when your own history includes the very same tactics going back long before the creation of the Israeli state.

Really? Well, obviously you're referring to the Stern Gang and the Lehi. How many active members did they have? Did they represent the Jews? What did the rest of the population and the main Zionist parties at the time think of them and their tactics? Even they themselves, did they call for the annihilation of another country or people, as do Pal and Arab charters?

And finally, what caused the Lehi and Stern gangs to use the tactics that they used? Whom were they used against? What had the British been doing to the Jewish Palestinain population under their control for decades? We'll get to that.

In fact while Canadians and the rest of the world were fighting Nazi Germany

You mean like these guys? So now you think you have a monopoly on WWII heroism, too? Phoney! Interesting how the name Neville Chamberlain pops up in that bit of history.

your "democratic" predecessors were routinely carrying out terrorist attacks against the British while they were fighting the Nazis

Just as the reverse can be said: the British themselves and the Arabs in Palestine, with British approval, had been harrasing and murdering Palestinian Jews since the 20's at the time when Palestinian Jews were begging the British to allow them to join up with the British to fight the Nazis and 6 million Jews were being slaughtered in Europe, while the British refused entry to the few fleeing Jews that could make it as far as Palestine. Well, well, what do you know! Wonderful chaps, the British. I say, old chum!

(one such faction even going so far as to pledge alegience to Hitler as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend").

Go ahead. Point out your source. But make sure you've checked very carefully that it isn't one of the unsubstantiated quotes that sites like StormFront love to hype and people like yourself get all excited being able to spread it around further.

Then there is the fact that a wanted terrorist by the British went on to become your first PM.

A great man, the late Begin was. But where were we?

Nice history, and you have the gall to compare your Nazi like tactics against the Palestians

Name them. Put your money where your fat mouth is.

as part of some global mythical struggle against "Islamofacism".

No. That's what the Islamists are doing for a fact and they're never shy of saying so. Maybe your Canadian papers are a bit shy of printing such matter but you can google for days accumulating original quotes from Islamic sites and purely Islamic source that state that as a fact, much as you wish to deny it.

It is you that are the myth weaver here.

And while you were destroying Lebanon piece by piece

Whatever it takes.

and seeking UN support you still took time out to celebrate the anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel and comemorate it,

Really? Again name your crooked sources. I know that we had a plaque placed at the King David hotel earlier this year and the British protested its text. It was replaced. There were no crowd drawing ceremonies, it hardly got mentioned on TV or radio and worse we didn't get a day off as a national holiday. Once again, you're full of it. Or more accurately, you're a David Duke wannabee with such twistings of facts and events.

BTW, here's the Etzel's own page on the King David Hotel bombing.

and the hundreds of British nationals killed in it by Jewish radicals disguised as Muslims, with a nice little plague - how very civilized and noble of you.

Indeed so. Here's the full text of the original plaque, unlike the editied version passed from hatesite to hatesite (you must love them, since you always are quoting them) across the Internet:

• "The hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat as well as the Army Headquarters. On July 1946 Irgun fighters, at the orders of the Hebrew Resistance Movement, planted explosives in the basement. Warning phone calls had been made urging the hotel's occupants to leave immediately. For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated, and after 25 minutes, the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun's regret and dismay, 91 persons were killed."

Does "Irgun's regret and dismay" sound like words of celebration to you? Are these uncivilized words to you? Do they completely lack in nobility?

And what's worse is what the plaque says is simply the truth but obviously, Scandy, the truth isn't your cup of tea. Perfect time to paraphrase the British.

And as to the Palestinian Parliment, would that be the one that your IDF routinely kidnaps and holds its representatives indefinitely in detention of?

Terrorists in suits and ties obviously impress you. Who cares!

Yeah some parliment, some freedom you grant the Palestinians from under your boot.

Ah! The boot! Another classic Nazi-associated term to pin on the Jews. But I'll reply semantically in kind: if the shoe fits.

You are really not so different from your enemy;

Actually, it is you who are not so different from my enemy. Think about that.

you claim a right to a piece of land as sacred based purely upon religious doctrine,

Yes but actually most Zionist pioneers were secular in nature but again, who cares about facts!

and which you have no other ties to yet will cling to it by any means available, no matter how brutal.

Ah! Our brutality wouldn't by chance have something to do with a neverending dream of the Arabs to "Itbach al Yahud" - "slaughter the Jews", now would it?

Classic line: If the Arabs would drop their weapons, there would be no more war. If the Israelis would drop theirs, there would be no more Israel.

That sums up the situation here in a nutshell. Climb on in!

If you go back a few decades before 1949 your numbers there were tiny, the sins your people having had suffered being caused by Europeans, not Muslims, and Israel was to be a refuge from the tyranny that Europeans, not Muslims, had for centuries exacted upon you.

It wasn't until the locals realized that you'd come not to simply live among them, but to take the land from them, that the **** hit the fan.

Would you like to start a historic discussion of land-grabbing? It didn't exist. Jews paid through their teeth for the worst possible land, unused by the Arabs. But I don't have time for more of your shenanigans today.

Now Skybird and his ilk see Muslims emigrating to Europe, and Germany specifically, and his fears seem to amount to exactly that which your people had done in what was then Palestine...

Threaten journalists, kill them, blow up their trains and planes. Yep, the Arabs learned that from the Jews, didn't they.

funny how this sort of projection works, and it would be funnier still if they in fact did have such designs and were ever successful, since then things would truly have gone full circle (seeing how the state of Israel was granted largely based upon Western guilt for the crimes we'd allowed Nazi Germany to inflict upon European Jews).

The Balfour declaration goes back to 1917, not 1947.

I've had enough of your hash and trash. I will some it up nicely with a letter composed by the late Rabbi Meir Kahane. Yes, that one. Until recently, we have never had anything to do with him. But the more writings of his I read, the more I see he was on to something and spot on at that. It turns out Kahane was right, after all.

Dear World,

It Appears That You Are Hard To Please.

I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged? Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we, the Jewish people - upset you. We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State.

The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home - to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset. Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state - we continue to upset you.

You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset.

The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron - in 1929. Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967?

And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset, then?

The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them..............

Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

[The Avon Lady]

One last appropriate article, touching on the King David Hotel incident.

Scandium, blood brother of Solana:

Solana and the sign
By SARAH HONIG

What connects European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana to a Jerusalem landmark inscription? Hypocrisy. Obfuscation of truth. Tampering with history, be it more distant or very recent.

Far from the sound and fury of unabated fighting on Israel's South and North, both Solana and the sign set new standards for insincerity, duplicity and pretence. Both travesties - equally stomach-churning, mind-boggling and plainly exasperating - came to light on the same day last week.

The marker was put up to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the King David Hotel blast in which the IZL (in the framework of an ad-hoc partnership with the other undergrounds - the actual operative order having come from Hagana commander Moshe Sneh) blew up the edifice that served as the British Mandate's nerve center. The IZL phoned warnings to the French Consulate, The Palestine Post (this newspaper's forerunner) and the hotel switchboard, requesting that the building be vacated forthwith to avoid casualties. The Brits haughtily pooh-poohed all three advance notices.

This is the marker's original text:

"The hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat as well as the Army Headquarters. On July 1946 Irgun fighters, at the orders of the Hebrew Resistance Movement, planted explosives in the basement. Warning phone calls had been made urging the hotel's occupants to leave immediately. For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated, and after 25 minutes, the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun's regret and dismay, 91 persons were killed."

IT'S ALL incontrovertibly true, but truth isn't everyone's cup of tea. And so Her Majesty's embassy demanded the sign be revised. To curry favor and avoid discord, Jerusalem's municipality dutifully promised to remove offensive references to the British refusal to clear the premises.
It may seem paltry considering current bloody events, but it's symptomatic. We're always so eager to please and so hungry for foreigners' approval - even at the expense of the justice of our cause.

The King David bombing is still cited today by Israel's maligners as an example of "Jewish terrorism," exploited particularly in order to set up synthetic moral equivalency between Arab suicide bombers who deliberately target civilians and the Jewish underground, which went out of its way to avoid casualties, civilian and otherwise.

The King David lie remains too useful to too many. They can't let it be dented, not even via a forgettable memorial plaque. And in our alacrity to accommodate ourselves and bask in the warm glow of enlightened post-modernist bon ton, we all too often willingly sacrifice the ethical core of our case, that which sets us apart from those who would annihilate us.

We even omit to stress the existential nature of Israel's struggle: how it was savagely attacked on the day of its birth by seven armies (some trained, equipped and led by the very same Brits who denied entry into this country to Jewish refugees from Hitler's hell, and later to hell's emaciated survivors). We compliantly submit to our characterization as somewhat unsavory.

SOLANA, HABITUALLY disseminating these de-rigueur characterizations, showed up here on "a fact-finding mission" on behalf of the EU, which presumably couldn't figure out what triggered the latest regional fuss and didn't apparently realize that fanatic Islamo-fascists - in possession of territories unilaterally ceded to them by Israel - had violated Israeli sovereignty, killed Israeli soldiers, abducted others and shelled noncombatants deep inside the country.

Both Hamas and Hizbullah owe allegiance to masters and manipulators in Damascus and Teheran, hardly the darlings of the world's progressive, liberal and tolerant democracies. Some of these democracies nevertheless dispatched Solana to discover what the uproar from troublesome Israel's vicinity was all about.

While here, Solana saw fit to uphold the EU's refusal to classify Hizbullah as a terrorist organization, asserting that the EU "does not possess sufficient data to determine" whether Nasrallah's nasties belong on its baddie list. He insisted on this not being a moral lapse on Europe's part, but strictly "a legal issue."

Solana's humbug isn't paint on metal. But it is, in essence, indistinguishable from the King David plaque modification. In both instances manifestly evident facts are denied and disingenuously covered up to serve vested interests and facilitate double standards.

If the specter of Jewish terrorism can be artificially conjured and magnified, it may not-so-subtly excuse horrific unrelenting terrorism against Jews.

Conversely, if that monstrously barbaric terror unleashed against the Jews can be diminished and deceptively passed off as something else, then Jewish self-defense is cast in a villainous light and tarnished with malicious tendentiousness as "disproportionate" and, indeed, inherently terrorist itself.

BY PRETENDING that Hizbullah may possibly be on the up-and-up, Solana knowingly propagates falsehoods. He isn't a misguided visitor to Beirut - like the three young women whose tearful departure from that city was so heartrendingly documented by the BBC. Probably never lovers of Zion to begin with, they were allowed to ramble on - without interruption or critical interrogation - about how Israelis "torture" the undeserving Lebanese. Solana surely knows better.
His realpolitik sanctimony notwithstanding, he knows that had Hamas and Hizbullah stayed inside their side of the demarcation line and not terrorized Israelis, no violence whatever would have broken out. No "humanitarian disaster" would be looming over either Gaza or Beirut.

But worse yet - in his heart of hearts - Solana knows that had Israelis not resisted the aggression of the Hamas and Hizbullah objects of his compassion, had Israelis not taken up arms in their self-defense, they'd face another Holocaust, as Hamas's and Hizbullah's Iranian sponsor has already explicitly threatened, mincing no words.

Unlike the British Mandatory high command, Israel cannot afford to superciliously dismiss serious forewarnings.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by scandium

Really? Tell me then, how many countries have tiny Israel's per capita rate of domestic, done on Israeli soil, terrorist attacks? How many other countries bulldoze, per capita, the number of homes that Israel does? How many first world countries have the ~40% unemployment rate that is enjoyed by your segregated and disenfranchised Palestinian population? How many countries detain, without trial and per capita, the number of people that Israel does? How many 21st century countries are building the kind of midieval style walls that Israel is building? And how many 1st world countries practice the kind of pre-Mendalla Apartheid that is practiced in Israel? And how many 1st world countries routinely use their airforce to bomb targets within their own borders?

Yet you think your approach is working? Why then does your country resemble so much more of a police state than any other 1st world country in the World? And before you simply blame the Muslim Palestinians, recall that other countries (such as France, the US, possibly Germany, and many others) have far more Muslims living within their borders yet use none of your methods and have none of your problems. So clearly what have you've been doing for the last 70 years hasn't worked, and the attempts at a paper Palestinian state that has never gone anywhere is a red herring. Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

The history of Europe is one that is far bloodier than that of Israel's, yet you don't see Germany expelling French citizens, or Spain bombing Portugal. Not that the rest of us have entirely clean hands at home or abroad, but your country seems unique in its ability to spend decades fighting the same battle with the same tactics with absolutely no insight into the fact that they've accomplished little beyond exporting your domestiv conflict to the rest of the globe. Of course you don't see this and are the forum cheerleader for blaming all the worlds ills on the mostly powerless and many places all but enslaved Muslims; personally I'm more inclined to lay the blame at the only 1st world country that makes ethnicity/religion a prerequisite for citizenship (among other benefits) and in that regard places itself into the same category as Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, enjoys a foreign aid budget that dwarfs that of any other country and which it has no longer any need for and devotes almost exclusively to weapons that it uses to destroy defenseless neighbours like Lebanon, which is ironically one of the most progressive countries in the region and a natural trading partner and ally if only your government, having only a hammer, didn't see every problem as though it were a nail. But you do. And then you expect the rest of us to clean up your mess and continue to make the annual welfare payments as well (while bailing you out of the UN court everytime you smash something else).

I think we'd see a lot more peace and a lot less terrorism if simply we started treating Israel more like an adult and less like a spoiled teenager.

He's right, by god roll over and play dead.