What is the worth of blackmailed "friendship"

Skybird · 09-22-06, 05:55 AM

"Pakistan is our close and trustworthy ally."

So much for that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5369198.stm

Is such a voluntary and enthusiastic ally really a close one, and trustworthy? Their security apparatus is infected with Taleban supporters, their territories along the borders is retreat ground for Taleban, they just gave up and were effectively defeated in the battle for the tribal regions in the West, Musharaf is no beloved leader, but a besieged leader whom very many Pakistani would prefer to see dead, and the country itself is not Western, but Islamic.

An ally looks different. Musharaf or not, high time to reconsider Pakistan's status on our buddy-list.

Onkel Neal · 09-22-06, 05:57 AM

I don't think anyone really considers Pakistan an "ally" like we do the British and the Japanese. That's just "attaboy"-speak... their leader has been helpful in the WOT and it's easier to work with them than through them.

Immacolata · 09-22-06, 05:59 AM

Yeah, imagine having to invade Afghanistan from. Uhm. Ramstein airbase in Germany? And all the bad boys could just slip over the border to Pakistan. No it is important that Pakistan officially supports the operations in Afghanistan, or it would have not just been hard. I bet it would have been near impossible.

The Avon Lady · 09-22-06, 06:00 AM

Sounds just like "our trusted allies, the Saudis."

Foggy bottom speak.

Skybird, there have been numerous JW articles over the last few years, pointing out the untrustworthiness of Pakistan as an allie. It is a relationship of convenience.

Skybird · 09-22-06, 07:15 AM

I have spoken myself against Pakistan from the beginning, AL. It's just that the public got used to believe the politicians: that they are our allies, our trustworthy friends. Now, these people make new policies themselves - on the ground of these deceiving statements. That way, the words of our leaders - now turn against our interests. Try to argue against Pakistan in Germany now - you will have a tough stand. Because we all know it: Pakistan is our trustworty ally and our friend. Politicians always think that what they do and say comes without price. But there is a price, always. Sometimes it comes in the form of perceived treachery, or what the CIA means by "blowbacks".

fredbass · 09-22-06, 07:43 AM

The bottom line really is what do we gain or lose from their support. What benefits do we achieve. As long as the U.S. can get the kind of support that is needed when it's needed, then they will be considered a sort of friend or ally or whatever you'd like to call them.

Drebbel · 09-22-06, 10:24 AM

Quote:

"Pakistan is our close and trustworthy ally."

Pakistan is a strange country ruled by a military guy. promising all and everything to the west and at the same time allowing all the bad stuff on their own homeground.

"No one" can really consider them as a close ally

Quote:

It's just that the public got used to believe the politicians: that they are our allies, our trustworthy friends

Trustworthy friends ? Who of the public says or thinks that. In what western country is that the opinion of the public ?

August · 09-22-06, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Because we all know it: Pakistan is our trustworty ally and our friend.

C'mon Skybird. You aren't seriously telling us that Germans would be so dumb as to actually believe that would you?

Skybird · 09-22-06, 11:02 AM

Saw it repeatedly happen in terror-discussions, August: that we (the Europeans, the West) shall not let Pakistan down, for they are so modern, so democratic, so west-loving, and that we really owe them for the part in the WOT. So, as a sad matter of fact I tell you that there are lot of people around who buy it. Don't forget, it is always well-meaning Europeans we talk about, who always only assume the best intentions in their talking partner.

Perilscope · 09-22-06, 11:07 AM

What really worries me in that country is the moment Musharaf is removed, by force or death, Islamic radicals will have access to the A-bomb. Sure they don't have the missiles to lunch it anywhere close towards Europe, even less the Americas, but with the help of Iran, they could dismantle it and ship it in a container bound for New York, London, Haifa, Bombay, Genoa... who knows?

So until Musharaf is there, we can say its better than nothing, after him...:hmm:

August · 09-22-06, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perilscope

What really worries me in that country is the moment Musharaf is removed, by force or death, Islamic radicals will have access to the A-bomb. Sure they don't have the missiles to lunch it anywhere close towards Europe, even less the Americas, but with the help of Iran, they could dismantle it and ship it in a container bound for New York, London, Haifa, Bombay, Genoa... who knows?

Anything is possible i suppose but don't forget India.

Onkel Neal · 09-22-06, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perilscope

What really worries me in that country is the moment Musharaf is removed, by force or death, Islamic radicals will have access to the A-bomb. Sure they don't have the missiles to lunch it anywhere close towards Europe, even less the Americas, but with the help of Iran, they could dismantle it and ship it in a container bound for New York, London, Haifa, Bombay, Genoa... who knows?

So until Musharaf is there, we can say its better than nothing, after him...:hmm:

...and it doesn't worry you that radical muslims in Iran are working to get their own bomb? Oh, it does worry you. What shall we do about it? Wait and see?

Immacolata · 09-22-06, 12:44 PM

What is a TLAM?

Fish · 09-22-06, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perilscope

What really worries me in that country is the moment Musharaf is removed, by force or death, Islamic radicals will have access to the A-bomb. Sure they don't have the missiles to lunch it anywhere close towards Europe, even less the Americas, but with the help of Iran, they could dismantle it and ship it in a container bound for New York, London, Haifa, Bombay, Genoa... who knows?

So until Musharaf is there, we can say its better than nothing, after him...:hmm:

You don't need to unload the bomb, just let it explode in a harbour.

Perilscope · 09-22-06, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

...and it doesn't worry you that radical muslims in Iran are working to get their own bomb? Oh, it does worry you. What shall we do about it? Wait and see?

Iran, I thought we were talking about Musharaf and Pakistan here?
Anyway, Iran is another story and a story to be dealt even more seriously and soon, since Iran is much closer to Europe and its enemies. Furthermore, Iran has only one agenda in their mind, the ignition of a clash with the westerns. They really want it, and I say they are going to get it. The USA has we speak are preparing and calculating all the possibilities for a preemptive strike, will USA do it, I do not know, but if they do it, better do it now, because I feel that the next president won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

You don't need to unload the bomb, just let it explode in a harbour.

Nobody said "UNLOAD" Weird from you that one???

09-22-06, 05:55 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,671 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	What is the worth of blackmailed "friendship" "Pakistan is our close and trustworthy ally." So much for that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5369198.stm Is such a voluntary and enthusiastic ally really a close one, and trustworthy? Their security apparatus is infected with Taleban supporters, their territories along the borders is retreat ground for Taleban, they just gave up and were effectively defeated in the battle for the tribal regions in the West, Musharaf is no beloved leader, but a besieged leader whom very many Pakistani would prefer to see dead, and the country itself is not Western, but Islamic. An ally looks different. Musharaf or not, high time to reconsider Pakistan's status on our buddy-list. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-22-06, 06:00 AM	#4
The Avon Lady Über Mom Join Date: May 2005 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 6,147 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Sounds just like "our trusted allies, the Saudis." Foggy bottom speak. Skybird, there have been numerous JW articles over the last few years, pointing out the untrustworthiness of Pakistan as an allie. It is a relationship of convenience. __________________ "Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women." - Houari Boumedienne, President of Algeria, Speech before the UN, 1974

09-22-06, 07:15 AM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,671 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I have spoken myself against Pakistan from the beginning, AL. It's just that the public got used to believe the politicians: that they are our allies, our trustworthy friends. Now, these people make new policies themselves - on the ground of these deceiving statements. That way, the words of our leaders - now turn against our interests. Try to argue against Pakistan in Germany now - you will have a tough stand. Because we all know it: Pakistan is our trustworty ally and our friend. Politicians always think that what they do and say comes without price. But there is a price, always. Sometimes it comes in the form of perceived treachery, or what the CIA means by "blowbacks". __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-22-06, 11:02 AM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,671 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Saw it repeatedly happen in terror-discussions, August: that we (the Europeans, the West) shall not let Pakistan down, for they are so modern, so democratic, so west-loving, and that we really owe them for the part in the WOT. So, as a sad matter of fact I tell you that there are lot of people around who buy it. Don't forget, it is always well-meaning Europeans we talk about, who always only assume the best intentions in their talking partner. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-22-06, 05:57 AM	#2
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	I don't think anyone really considers Pakistan an "ally" like we do the British and the Japanese. That's just "attaboy"-speak... their leader has been helpful in the WOT and it's easier to work with them than through them.

09-22-06, 05:59 AM	#3
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Yeah, imagine having to invade Afghanistan from. Uhm. Ramstein airbase in Germany? And all the bad boys could just slip over the border to Pakistan. No it is important that Pakistan officially supports the operations in Afghanistan, or it would have not just been hard. I bet it would have been near impossible.

09-22-06, 07:43 AM	#6
fredbass Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Port Richey, Fl, USA Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The bottom line really is what do we gain or lose from their support. What benefits do we achieve. As long as the U.S. can get the kind of support that is needed when it's needed, then they will be considered a sort of friend or ally or whatever you'd like to call them.

09-22-06, 11:07 AM	#10
Perilscope Sonar Guy Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Montréal Posts: 399 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	What really worries me in that country is the moment Musharaf is removed, by force or death, Islamic radicals will have access to the A-bomb. Sure they don't have the missiles to lunch it anywhere close towards Europe, even less the Americas, but with the help of Iran, they could dismantle it and ship it in a container bound for New York, London, Haifa, Bombay, Genoa... who knows? So until Musharaf is there, we can say its better than nothing, after him...:hmm:

09-22-06, 12:44 PM	#13
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	What is a TLAM?