Would Europe have survived

[August]

I think Imperial Germany would have prevailed in WW1 without US involvement. Their 1918 spring offensive was only stopped by US troops at Château-Thierry. And aside from that the Allied offensive later that year which ended up forcing the Germans to capitulate included over a million US troops and sailors. Would it succeed without them? I doubt it.

Without US involvement in WW2 on the other hand I think it's a tossup as to whether nazi Germany would have won. No US involvement means no fuel and supplies going to the British or the Russians. Do either stay afloat long enough for the US to be forced into it by Japan without it? The Brits maybe, they still had their navy and overseas possessions but the Russians probably not (IMO). The Germans would never have stalled before the gates of Moscow without US planes, tanks, fuel and ammo.

[Shadowblade]

Originally Posted by August

I think Imperial Germany would have prevailed in WW1 without US involvement. Their 1918 spring offensive was only stopped by US troops at Château-Thierry. And aside from that the Allied offensive later that year which ended up forcing the Germans to capitulate included over a million US troops and sailors. Would it succeed without them? I doubt it.

Germany could collapse even without US forces because of the naval blockade of Germany which was devastating to Germany and its economic.
Or both sides could be so exhausted by the war so they could have concluded a peace treaty (= no The Treaty of Versailles).
But Great war would be definitely longer without US forces.

Originally Posted by August

Without US involvement in WW2 on the other hand I think it's a tossup as to whether nazi Germany would have won. No US involvement means no fuel and supplies going to the British or the Russians. Do either stay afloat long enough for the US to be forced into it by Japan without it? The Brits maybe, they still had their navy and overseas possessions but the Russians probably not (IMO). The Germans would never have stalled before the gates of Moscow without US planes, tanks, fuel and ammo.

imho the conflict with Germany was unavoidable, because US supplied weapons to Europe and their escorts protected convoys. It was just matter of time.

[Dargo]

For all "what ifers" this is an interesting YT channel to watch https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryUndo...sHanson/videos

[August]

Originally Posted by Shadowblade

Germany could collapse even without US forces because of the naval blockade of Germany which was devastating to Germany and its economic.
Or both sides could be so exhausted by the war so they could have concluded a peace treaty (= no The Treaty of Versailles).
But Great war would be definitely longer without US forces.

I'm not so sure of that.

The Germans, fresh with a half million troops freed up from the Eastern front (my Great Grandfather amongst them) had pushed 18 miles through the front lines before the Americans stopped them at Chateau Thierry. I think exhaustion or not the Germans were on their way to Paris. Without American money and goods sent to the Entente before it's entry into the war it might have broken before that.

imho the conflict with Germany was unavoidable, because US supplied weapons to Europe and their escorts protected convoys. It was just matter of time.

I sometimes imagine hitler calling up tojo on Dec 8th and saying "Dumkopf I said to attack the USSR from the east not the USA from the west!"

Seriously though i'm not sure sure of it being just a matter of time here either. Without those US supplies would Germany have ever declared war on the USA? They didn't all through 1940-41 while we were shipping millions of tons of supplies across the Atlantic to the British. Not until a few days after we declared war on the Japanese did the Germans declare war on the USA on Dec 11th 1941 in accordance with their Tripartite Pact Mutual Defense treaty.

[mapuc]

I came to think of an episode of S.T TOS, where the doctor travel back in time and change history-Which mean no Enterprise. The rest of the story you know.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by August

I think Imperial Germany would have prevailed in WW1 without US involvement. Their 1918 spring offensive was only stopped by US troops at Château-Thierry. And aside from that the Allied offensive later that year which ended up forcing the Germans to capitulate included over a million US troops and sailors. Would it succeed without them? I doubt it.

Without US involvement in WW2 on the other hand I think it's a tossup as to whether nazi Germany would have won. No US involvement means no fuel and supplies going to the British or the Russians. Do either stay afloat long enough for the US to be forced into it by Japan without it? The Brits maybe, they still had their navy and overseas possessions but the Russians probably not (IMO). The Germans would never have stalled before the gates of Moscow without US planes, tanks, fuel and ammo.

...the war for Germany was over strategically after Jutland. Germany would become the blockaidee and not the blockader. Whatever happened on land(strictly tactical in terms of entrenched cannon-fodder) might have gone on a tad longer longer but with the same result. The result is the same: civilization will end in 2040.

[mapuc]

Thank you for your input it was interesting to read them. It also showed that we are so into actual history that we mix it with non actual history. The alternative where USA stay out of both world wars due to Isolationism

Markus