Take that, you flyboys.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

I think the CONOPs is that if a ASW aircraft has already detected you, last layer defense is to blow him up before he can drop a torp.

If he hasn't dropped a torpedo then how do you know he's detected you? You're better off to go deep and hope he doesn't detect you, than to shoot a short ranged missile against an aircraft that is probably not very tightly localized and make absolute CERTAIN that he's detected you.

Or if he's already dropped a torp, then evade and blow him out the water before he can drop another one.

Okay... think DW... you successfully evade a torpedo, how long does that take? A few minutes. An aircraft can travel at over 200kts, the aircraft could be ANYWHERE by that time. You can't shoot a missile with a range of only a couple miles and have a decent chance of hitting an airplane immediately after dodging a torpedo. It doesn't make any sense.

There's a pretty good chance that the submarine communities current concensus is such because.... its the only option they're ever had...

I don't see that. My experience is that the submarine community, right now, is probably among the most willing to do all kinds of weird things. I just don't see how they're supposed to rationally employ the missile. I mean.. it's great that they're able to do it, and I think it's worth the money spent as an R&D project, but I'm not sure it's worth the money as an operational weapons system.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Currently SSN defense against ASW aircraft threats aren't multilayered at all. There exist one, and only one option. If that fails there are no alternatives. Employing a system to provide last ditch alternatives to a 2billion dollar platform is not a bad thing if the option avails itself. Especially if all the hardware required already exist.

The concept of a multilayered defense is designed around the quality of the layers. The idea is that one layer is unable to stop an acceptable fraction of incomming attacks. From what I can tell, most US submariners are pretty happy with the quality of their one layer, though.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

hmmmm :hmm: ... but a successfull test! It was launched from periscope depth and shot down a drone helicopter. If it's operational or not, is hard to know i think.

It wasn't even on the water, let alone under it - it was launched from an Army Chaparral system.

Originally Posted by Driftwood

On another note I'd also like it if SCS would add the Virginia class boats to the "inventory." They're already out there.

Can't you just use the Seawolf? There are Virginias, yes, but there aren't that many of them. Unless there is anything really different in "feel" about them over the Seawolfs and 688s, I'd prefer they do something else first.

Originally Posted by Sub Sailor

I doubt that the US Navy Submarine Force is going to start hunting Aircraft.

For some reason, I think Raytheon disagrees with you:

Originally Posted by Brock McCaman

Successfully demonstrating the AIM-9X lock-on-after-launch mode from a vertical orientation launch is a major step toward providing our submariners with an unprecedented offensive and defensive capability

or

Originally Posted by Eldon Vita

This non-traditional launch of the AIM-9X provides the submarine force with an important element toward having the capability to strike enemy patrol aircraft, helicopters, and high speed patrol boats

What really concerns me is that some idiot might just take these and similar sentences to heart. Which is bad. Besides, the AIM-9X has to either have to be modified w/ folding wings (possible developmental problem), or only 1 would fit in a Tomahawk VLS tube, which is not a very efficient deployment because w/ modern tech a much longer-legged antiair weapon could have been stuffed in such big tubes - say a 5.65m long 9M96E2 antiair missile with a 240mm diameter body, 480mm wingspan and 1-120km range w/ ARH. Now THAT would give you something close to an offensive ability. The US can probably modify a PAC-3 Patriot w/ a bigger booster (I understand they are doing this now) and cutting some warhead to get similar performance, and perhaps change to a IR seeking head.

A 10km range weapon with maybe a 3000m ceiling will do little more than deter MAD runs and force enemy MPA fly higher. They can either lob torps DW style or create a market for air-launched versions of 91RE ASW missiles (over 50km because of high altitude deployment). I can almost see the Russians smiling...

[Driftwood]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Lets keep the 2 things distinct.
In real life this was a test ok, there is nothing operational right now.
No sub has the capability to launch surface to air missiles.
So this aspect should not be included in the sim.

As to cheat i was referring in regards to the use of sams.
Its inconceivable that in 1 sec you can have the sub skirting under the surface and right after fire a sam.
You don't even have to clear the sail completely to fire.
The missiles themselves just hit whatever plane/helo is in the zone, you don't even have to put the crosshair on the target. And last but not least, those sams are just to effective almost godlike in their effectiveness way beyond what can be seen in real life.
For these reasons i called the use of sams a cheat.
And sub players using it as it is now in the game, are cheaters.
If you are offended by my last sentence, its your problem.
Its my opinion.

Ok, here's two things for you......First one is my comment had nothing to do with how SAM's are currently used in DW so you need to get a grip. Second one is there was absolutely nothing in my post that indicated I took offense at what you said.........so lighten up big boy. I was just looking for some clarification.........you gave it........I understand where you're coming from.......that last sentence was totally unnecessary.

Kazuaki.......Sure I can use the Seawolf. I always do. And in less than a year there will be just as many active Virginia class boats as Seawolf class subs so what's your point? I was just stating "a wish." You have yours, I have mine..........Man, what's happening with this thread???? Seems like several of you "gentlemen" may have had a little to much caffeine today or something.

[Smaragdadler]

New missile system for submarines



Details of a lightweight, fibre-optic linked missile system for submarines which is being developed in Germany will be shown by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems AG.
Known as IDAS (Interactive Defence and Attack System), the concept has been developed by the German companies HDW (system integration) and Diehl BGT Defence (missile design) and the Norwegian company KDA (combat system). IDAS is a multi-purpose weapon system suitable not only for operations against ASW helicopters but also for precision strikes against surface targets and objectives on land in the vicinity of the coast. The fibre-optic link enables the operator to verify the target selected by the seeker and to command the missile right into the chosen hit point. Because of the missile's extreme hit accuracy a relatively small warhead can be used. The German/Norwegian consortium referred to as ARGE IDAS and supported by the German Government, is carrying out an experimental study of the IDAS missile system which will demonstrate technical feasibility in a controlled test flight planned for the end of 2006. After a full-scale design and production phase, the system will be available in 2010. It is planned to integrate the IDAS missile system into the new German 212A Class submarines.

Source: http://www.udt-europe.com/downloads/...tter-May06.pdf

12345

[DivingWind]

That illustration is jaw droping!

[XabbaRus]

I thought that had been cancelled, polyphem was it not called?

[Smaragdadler]

The source date for the quote on the last page is may 2006. Here is an longer article from 2003. That's all I know for now.

INTERNATIONAL DEFENSE REVIEW - NOVEMBER 01, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Submarine missile development launched

German-based naval shipbuilder Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), missile company Bodenseewerke Gerätetechnik (BGT) and Norway's Kongsberg Defense & Aerospace (KDA) are forming a joint company in November for the development of the IDAS (interactive defense for air-attacked submarines) submarine weapons system.

IDAS will be a fiber-optically-guided missile system for submerged submarines, designed to allow the submarine to engage airborne anti-submarine warfare (ASW) threats (primarily ASW helicopters). It will also provide a capability to carry out precision strikes against surface ships or coastal targets.

As such, IDAS will bring a "revolutionary change to anti-submarine warfare, while at the same time giving the submarine an escalation capability against surface and coastal targets," company officials claimed. "IDAS may extend the submarine's role significantly so that it becomes a precision asset in modern scenarios for asymmetrical warfare."

The three companies started work on Phase 1 of the IDAS experimental study in July. This phase is being fully funded by the German federal defense procurement agency (BWB) under a contract between BWB and HDW, said HDW's program manager Joachim Reuter.

Phase 2 of the study is to start in January 2004 and this will be funded jointly by the BWB, by the Norwegian Ministry of Defense and by the three companies involved. The study, involving a combined investment of EUR18 million (US$21m), is to be completed by December 2006. If full development starts without delay the IDAS system could be available by 2009, according to BGT's project manager Klaus-Eberhard Möller.

IDAS replaces an earlier effort by HDW to develop a self-defense missile system for submarines, known as Triton (see IDR 9/1999, p27). That program, carried out in partnership with EADS Lenkflugkörpersysteme (LFK) and based on the Polyphem fiber-optically-guided missile, was halted two years ago when LFK decided to end its involvement - "not for technical reasons, but as part of an effort to rationalize their project portfolio," officials said.

HDW said it subsequently approached BGT and that this has led to the launch of the IDAS project.

"When we were approached by HDW we realized that this missile would not be built in large numbers, so development cost would be a major design driver," Möller said. "There is no existing missile that can do this, so we must use as many existing components as possible to keep the cost low."

The resulting weapon will have a length of 2.45m, a diameter of 18cm and a weight of 118kg, including a 60kg rocket motor, a 13kg warhead section and a 13.5kg guidance section. Möller described the "technical range" as being more than 15km. The missile, featuring foldable strakes and fins, would be capable of 5g turns and would have a velocity of over 200m/s, he said.

Up to four IDAS missiles will be able to be carried in one IDAS launch container, which in turn can be fitted without major modification to any standard torpedo tube, HDW said. After launch, the missile unfolds its wings and rudder/fins, ignites its rocket motor, breaks the surface and continues towards the target, all the time under positive control from the submarine's combat information center.

The IDAS missile will employ the imaging infrared (IIR) seeker of BGT's IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missile, which BGT has developed in partnership with Norway and several other nations. The candidate warhead (shaped charge, 7kg explosive mass) would come from BGT's sister company Diehl Munitionsysteme (Reutenbach, Germany) and has already been developed for another type of missile, Möller said.

The electric fin actuator and control actuator systems will come from BGT's Armiger new-generation anti-radar missile.

The IIR seeker is "fully developed and qualified for IRIS-T," Möller said. He added that detection and tracking of helicopters has been proven in numerous flight tests, and that the seeker would be resistant against countermeasures. It would have a high detection range against low-signature targets, he said. IDR understands that when the missile vertically pops out of the water, it executes a quick 360º horizon scan for targets, making use of the seeker's capability to look at angles of more than 90º off-boresight.

"Usually the submarine launches an IDAS missile when a helicopter dipping sonar is activated in the water nearby. The missile is cued onto the bearing on which the dipping sonar helicopter will be. But in some scenarios, this helicopter is not actually the highest-priority threat. A second helicopter may be in the area which usually will be the weapons platform, ready to drop a lightweight torpedo on the submarine. If the IDAS missile sees another helicopter, it will attack this target. A second missile will have to be launched against the original target. The operator can manually override the missile's computer via the fiber-optic guidance link," Möller said.

Even if the helicopter does not deploy an active dipping sonar, it may still be detected by the submarine via the distinctive acoustic rotorblade signature that can be picked up by the boat's low-frequency towed array or flank array sonars.

The fiber-optic wire is paid out between the submarine and the missile via four bobbins: A-bobbin inside the missile, D-bobbin in the submarine, and B- and C-bobbin inside a so-called compensation buoy which is released by the missile at a water depth of approximately 10m. This buoy serves to compensate for waves and for drift, Möller said. Should the wire be cut regardless, the on-board guidance computer will continue the flight towards the target using the latest known information of its position, until the seeker achieves lock-on and the interception maneuver is initiated.

The IDAS missile's rocket motor features a three-stage burn sequence. This is achieved by successively filling the fuel section with three different types of solid propellant grain. The first stage (approximately 25%) is for the underwater trajectory. The second stage (also around 25%) is to accelerate the missile after breaching the sea surface. The third and final stage (approximately 50%) is to sustain the weapon through its flight against the target. The missile has four jet nozzles.

The IDAS development team is planning to conduct a series of test firings at the Elpersbüttel naval test station on Germany's North Sea coast, starting in early 2005. The station is operated by the BWB's WTD 71 test establishment. In a first phase, submerged IDAS missile firings will be tested, for which an IDAS launch container will be positioned on the seafloor. The second phase will involve the missile performing underwater maneuvering after being launched. In the third phase, the full operational sequence will be tested, including the transition from underwater to airborne flight, compensation buoy separation and fiber-optically-controlled flight. For the trials, a parachute recovery at the end of each flight is planned. Each phase will likely involve several missile launches, Reuter said. JJL

HDW and BGT do not expect to benefit from the submerged rocket motor firing tests that were done during the late 1990s by LFK and its rocket motor supplier (Bayern Chemie) under the previous Triton program. "IDAS will use a different motor, but we also want to prevent getting into any kind of legal trouble with LFK - after all, they terminated the project," IDR was told by company representatives.

HDW and BGT will have equal shares in the new IDAS GmbH company, while KDA is expected to be the minority partner. The exact division of ownership is still being negotiated.

HDW will be responsible for integrating IDAS into the submarine and will do the marketing. BGT will be doing the missile design including the fiber-optic system. KDA, as supplier of the MSI 90U submarine command and fire-control system in the German (and Italian) Type 212A submarines and Norwegian Ula-class submarines, will provide the IDAS weapon control. It is also planned that KDA may become a subcontractor to BGT for IDAS missile components.

http://p214.ezboard.com/ffighterplan...icID=403.topic

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

In DW, if you come to the surface to fire a SAM with air treaths around, you make a risky move, no warranty.

Not that risky. If you're coming up from below the layer to do it, yes, it's a risk. If you already are in shallow water, there is very little risk. The reason is that you're not surfacing to do it, you're just putting the top of the sail at water level. That's high enough to use the missile, but not enough to trigger the sensors in DW that track surface contacts. The only extra risks when at periscope depth are that you might have to slow down a little bit to prevent cavitation, and that someone might see the missile.

The effectiveness of the missiles is rather good too. Even if it doesn't hit, chances are good that the aircraft autopilot will crash the plane/helo while trying to evade when he's low enough.

[LoBlo]

Oh look, its quote-errific day. OK, I'll play along too I guess.

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Okay... think DW... you successfully evade a torpedo, how long does that take? A few minutes. An aircraft can travel at over 200kts, the aircraft could be ANYWHERE by that time. You can't shoot a missile with a range of only a couple miles and have a decent chance of hitting an airplane immediately after dodging a torpedo. It doesn't make any sense

So its pretty obvious that no one shoots blinding at random directions. Thinking DW?... ok then... you successflly evade a torpedo, what are the chances that your evasion direction were monitored by the helo and he's still looking for you? He's still out there no doubt. He's already demonstrated the ability to track you and most likely tracked your sprint. (Happens all the tiime in those DW shallow water ops when there's no layer to dive to). You popup the ESM and there he is...2nm NE closing again. You've already evaded one torp, what is the probability that you can evade another. Options are 1) attempt a 2nd evasion. 2) blow him up first and *then* attempt a 2nd evasion

There's no right answer of course. If whatever decision you chose worked then it was the right answer, if it didn't it was the wrong answer...maybe both options were wrong. No doubt the PK of the AIM-9s and your probability of evading alone weigh in. FYI Sidewinders have a reported range of 10-18 nm, the the current goal of the AIM-9x to provide off-boresight homing capability. Check it out the lockon cone of this thing. http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_054519.wmv

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

If he hasn't dropped a torpedo then how do you know he's detected you?

Take this situation: http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/specials/special_eighteen_hours_of_perisher.htm
But in place of the small SSK put one for our large SSNs. You've been pinged at 250meters (in place of the 600m) on your large broad port flank. Your lit up like a christmas tree and you know it. They've got you no doubt about it. Like the situation above there's no "deep" to run too. There's also no guessing to where the helo is... he's that big loud pinging that's 250meters off your port that just lit you up.

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

The concept of a multilayered defense is designed around the quality of the layers. The idea is that one layer is unable to stop an acceptable fraction of incomming attacks. From what I can tell, most US submariners are pretty happy with the quality of their one layer, though.

I gather that most DDG captains very are happy with their Aegis systems too, but they still equip Softkill capabilities. And they are probably happy with their Aegis + Softkill capabilities... but still equip ESSMs or CIWSs. No one choses not to employ the Aegis or Softkills and just let the ESSMs have a shot (that would be court martial... if you survive at all). But its still nice to have them.

Its pretty obvious that such a system will never be deployed (and is not menat to be) in anything but the most undesirable/extraordinary circumstances, but I envy the navy that at least has the capability. It will be interesting to see the final outcome of the program in the next few years.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by Smaragdadler

Cool. I always wondered what happened to the polyphem. Thanks

It will be interesting to see what becomes of the system above.

[Doc Savage]

How feasible would it be to send a frogman onto the sail with a MANPAD, while the sub is below the surface, ready to shoot down a helo the moment the sail is exposed? That should make if posible to shoot down a helo within a couple of seconds of exposing the sail.
Or even a frogman swimming up to the surface from the sub at say 100 feet, shooting down the helo and swimming back down to the sub. (How heavy are these MANPADs?)

The sub should be able to detect the helo on sonar within a few thousand yards without exposing a mast.

A wacky idea but seems like a cheaper alternative to these systems.

[goldorak]

Doc Savage : you realise that even if the sail of the sub hasn't broken the surface, the sub is nontheless visibile from the helo.
Up to a certain depth the sub is visibile (depends also on sea condition, if the water is clear, muddy etc...) but the fact is if the sub contact is determined hostile, the helo won't just wait for it to come to the surface.
The moment it has visual identification it pops a torpedo and there goes your frogman+sail+sub.

[Doc Savage]

Yeah. I didn't think of that till now.
I was thinking more along the lines of how long it would take to get Rambo on the sail with a Stinger in hand but I suppose it would be faster for the helo to spot the sub even at 100ft and fire something.
...I suppose any system to shoot down helos from a sub would need to be one which can be fired from pretty deep or at a long range...

[goldorak]

unless the sub for whatever reason is already on the surface when the helo comes into sam range.
Don't know how likely this scenario really is though.:hmm: