Take that, you flyboys.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Well, what Raytheon is proporting is that the AIM-9 series is pretty established, and the VLS sytems are pretty established, so why not bring two established systems together to see if they will work together? Just some software modifications & a cheap launch capsule and its ready for testing.

I think the CONOPs is that if a ASW aircraft has already detected you, last layer defense is to blow him up before he can drop a torp. Or if he's already dropped a torp, then evade and blow him out the water before he can drop another one. There's a pretty good chance that the submarine communities current concensus is such because.... its the only option they're ever had...

Submarines are designed to operate under the surface.
It was the german type XXI which revolutionized and made a paradigm shift in the way submarines were designed and utilized in modern warfare.
Up to then subs were basically surface ships, who went underwater only in the attack phase.
Maybe raytheon should go back in time and try to sell surface to air missiles to us fleet subs. :rotfl:
I don't see any utility for surface to air missiles on subs.
To fire you have to be on the surface, and you become vulnerable to surface to surface missiles.
Did you forget those existed ?
The existence of a sub is to be underwater for extended periods of time, carry out the mission as stealthily as possibile, attack as stealthily as possibile etc... and never surface.
Wasn't that the concept behind a submarine nuclear fleet ?
Adding surface to air missiles just negates the purpose of a submarine.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Submarines are designed to operate under the surface. It was the german type XXI which revolutionized and made a paradigm shift in the way submarines were designed and utilized in modern warfare. Up to then subs were basically surface ships, who went underwater only in the attack phase. Maybe raytheon should go back in time and try to sell surface to air missiles to us fleet subs. :rotfl:I don't see any utility for surface to air missiles on subs. To fire you have to be on the surface, and you become vulnerable to surface to surface missiles. Did you forget those existed ? The existence of a sub is to be underwater for extended periods of time, carry out the mission as stealthily as possibile, attack as stealthily as possibile etc... and never surface. Wasn't that the concept behind a submarine nuclear fleet ? Adding surface to air missiles just negates the purpose of a submarine.

What your missing is the fact that, as clearly written in the article above, these systems aren't intended to be fired while surfaced, but rather designed to be launched from VLS tubes while submerged in the same manner that all other VLS ordinance in deployed.

Modern US defensive systems are constructed around a multilayered defensive strategy whenever possible. When threatened use X, if that fails use Y, if that fails as well use Z. If that fails your toast. Whenever you get to option Z your already in bad shape and things don't look good, but it does give another layer of defense and increases chances of surviving a hostile encounter.

Currently SSN defense against ASW aircraft threats aren't multilayered at all. There exist one, and only one option. If that fails there are no alternatives. Employing a system to provide last ditch alternatives to a 2billion dollar platform is not a bad thing if the option avails itself. Especially if all the hardware required already exist.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I think it's a bad idea. It tempts modern SSNs to play flak U-Boat with a $1 billion plus platform. Going shallow and slow is not exactly the best place to play the "last ditch" card against airborne ASW.

[Sub Sailor]

I doubt that the US Navy Submarine Force is going to start hunting Aircraft. This system when and if it is installed would at least provide some defense when a boat is ordered into shallow water with little maneuver room. We have always preferred not being detected, that is not going to change. If you have ever been on an operation and many of the men on this forum have, where a dam helo detects you and then hammers you for hours, even if it's ours it makes you aware that you are pretty dam helpless until you get to deep water where you can use your speed and the environment to shake the sucker. If the Pilot know you have AAW capabilities it could make him less aggressive, and at least provide you with some ability to get out of dodge. Now, you have to take it while they have their fun. They do you know, the old wrap the grenade in toilet paper so it sinks deeper before the spoon pops off. Don't any of you skimmers tell me you don't do that, I started out life as a skimmer before I was saved. I think you use to just test your sonar in PH just to make our life miserable across from you piers.

Go AIM-9

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Currently SSN defense against ASW aircraft threats aren't multilayered at all. There exist one, and only one option. If that fails there are no alternatives. Employing a system to provide last ditch alternatives to a 2billion dollar platform is not a bad thing if the option avails itself. Especially if all the hardware required already exist.

The concept of a multilayered defense is designed around the quality of the layers. The idea is that one layer is unable to stop an acceptable fraction of incomming attacks. From what I can tell, most US submariners are pretty happy with the quality of their one layer, though.

[LoBlo]

Oh look, its quote-errific day. OK, I'll play along too I guess.

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Okay... think DW... you successfully evade a torpedo, how long does that take? A few minutes. An aircraft can travel at over 200kts, the aircraft could be ANYWHERE by that time. You can't shoot a missile with a range of only a couple miles and have a decent chance of hitting an airplane immediately after dodging a torpedo. It doesn't make any sense

So its pretty obvious that no one shoots blinding at random directions. Thinking DW?... ok then... you successflly evade a torpedo, what are the chances that your evasion direction were monitored by the helo and he's still looking for you? He's still out there no doubt. He's already demonstrated the ability to track you and most likely tracked your sprint. (Happens all the tiime in those DW shallow water ops when there's no layer to dive to). You popup the ESM and there he is...2nm NE closing again. You've already evaded one torp, what is the probability that you can evade another. Options are 1) attempt a 2nd evasion. 2) blow him up first and *then* attempt a 2nd evasion

There's no right answer of course. If whatever decision you chose worked then it was the right answer, if it didn't it was the wrong answer...maybe both options were wrong. No doubt the PK of the AIM-9s and your probability of evading alone weigh in. FYI Sidewinders have a reported range of 10-18 nm, the the current goal of the AIM-9x to provide off-boresight homing capability. Check it out the lockon cone of this thing. http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_054519.wmv

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

If he hasn't dropped a torpedo then how do you know he's detected you?

Take this situation: http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/specials/special_eighteen_hours_of_perisher.htm
But in place of the small SSK put one for our large SSNs. You've been pinged at 250meters (in place of the 600m) on your large broad port flank. Your lit up like a christmas tree and you know it. They've got you no doubt about it. Like the situation above there's no "deep" to run too. There's also no guessing to where the helo is... he's that big loud pinging that's 250meters off your port that just lit you up.

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

The concept of a multilayered defense is designed around the quality of the layers. The idea is that one layer is unable to stop an acceptable fraction of incomming attacks. From what I can tell, most US submariners are pretty happy with the quality of their one layer, though.

I gather that most DDG captains very are happy with their Aegis systems too, but they still equip Softkill capabilities. And they are probably happy with their Aegis + Softkill capabilities... but still equip ESSMs or CIWSs. No one choses not to employ the Aegis or Softkills and just let the ESSMs have a shot (that would be court martial... if you survive at all). But its still nice to have them.

Its pretty obvious that such a system will never be deployed (and is not menat to be) in anything but the most undesirable/extraordinary circumstances, but I envy the navy that at least has the capability. It will be interesting to see the final outcome of the program in the next few years.