Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[August]

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Reece

If Russia can fire Iranian and North Korea weapons into Ukraine I see no reason Ukraine can't fire western weapons into Russia!!

Ukraine has flown drones into Russia. Maybe you are suggesting Ukraine fire cruise missiles? They don’t have any. With slight modifications they could accurately strike ground targets with their s300 SAMS. But they haven’t done that.

Everyone is just on the permission public relations bandwagon and not really thinking what the objective is. Emotional rants & polls about who gives permission especially by those who haven’t provided the means to do so are pointless.

[Skybird]

Sweden will deliver all its remaining PBV 302 infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine, around 200 units, including all maitenance equipment, spare parts and ammo for these vehicles designed in the 60s. German wkipedia has this about it:

The hull of the infantry fighting vehicle is similar to that of the M113 in terms of box construction, but consists of welded armored steel plates. The Pbv 302 has been continuously modernized and its combat value increased over the years and is still in service today, although the more modern Combat Vehicle 90 infantry fighting vehicle is increasingly being used. It was not exported to other countries.

The main armament is a 20 mm Hispano-Suiza type 804 automatic cannon, which is housed in a turret made of welded armored steel plates. The automatic cannon came from surplus J 28 (Vampire) aircraft of the Swedish Air Force (Flygvapnet). Since they ejected the shells downwards in the Vampire, but upwards in the turret, there were frequent malfunctions. A box magazine with 30 rounds supplies the weapon. A total of ten magazines are carried. The elevation range of the gun extends from -10° to +50°, the elevation range is 360°. The firing range is designed for distances of 500 to 1600 meters. As secondary armament, the vehicle carries a 7.62 mm caliber machine gun mounted on the armored personnel carrier. The excellent off-road driving characteristics are worth mentioning. The relatively wide tracks of the Pbv 302 cause a ground pressure of only 0.6 kg/cm². This is particularly advantageous on tundra terrain in summer and on snow. A power-to-weight ratio of 14.36 kW/t also favors this.

The vehicle is also amphibious. In the water, it is propelled by the chains.

There is no NBC protection and no built-in night vision equipment.



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Addendum: the cannon is also belt-fed with HE rounds, the boxed ammunition causing problems when ejecting the empty shells is for AP rounds.


Drones make every movement in daylight a highly dangerous task and movement is often tasked for the night. I am sure that night vision is a minimum they will need to apply to these vehicles. Probably comm systems as well.

[Skybird]

Media report that around 14% of Russia's oil refinery capacities currently are out of action due to Ukrainian drone strikes. There are correpsinding losses in state income for the Russia budget. Ukrainian drones have increased their size, range, and payload, they also constantly improve their hardening against jamming. The newest models seem to have a range of 1000km. So in innovaiton the Ukrainians are leading, but Russia is superior, up and away in its ability to industrially mass-produce drones.

[Rockstar]

Exactly! Ukraine has been for quite sometime now striking targets on Russian soil and they have every right too. Seems to me Ukraine doesn’t need anyone’s blessing now do they? Yet European politicians are suddenly stumbling over themselves to be the first to give Ukraine permission, what arrogance.

Our ATACMS have a longer range than the British Storm Shadow cruise missile. Let’s go Europe your politician's graciously gave Ukraine permission to strike inside Russia, now step and put your money where mouth is and at least give Ukraine the hardware with the range to do it.

So far you provide just bold talk and no action. Take the lead Europe send strikes into Russias manufacturing and energy sectors send your tomahawks into Moscow and other major metropolitan centers that would do nicely I think. You’ve given yourself permission now show the world how it’s done give Ukraine the tools to do it.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

….
Do they know something I don't ? Because the war ain't over yet and who's going win is still uncertain.

Markus

What I know is what our SecState mentioned that the tide has turned in favor of Ukraine. Now couple that with European leaders (particularly Scholz and Macron) who at the start were afraid to make Putin mad. Suddenly stepping out of the shadows making a show of granting permission to Ukraine to strike Russia! Which , funny enough is something Ukraine has been doing already. Makes me think Blinken is telling the truth.

Don’t worry Ukraine, the U.S., U.K. and Baltic States have had your back since 2014.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Exactly! Ukraine has been for quite sometime now striking targets on Russian soil and they have every right too. Seems to me Ukraine doesn’t need anyone’s blessing now do they? Yet European politicians are suddenly stumbling over themselves to be the first to give Ukraine permission, what arrogance.

Our ATACMS have a longer range than the British Storm Shadow cruise missile. Let’s go Europe your politician's graciously gave Ukraine permission to strike inside Russia, now step and put your money where mouth is and at least give Ukraine the hardware with the range to do it.

So far you provide just bold talk and no action. Take the lead Europe send strikes into Russias manufacturing and energy centers send a couple of tomahawks into Moscow and other major metropolitan centers that would do nicely I think. You’ve given yourself permission now show the world how it’s done.

Gonna be interesting to se how Russia will response to these attack on their equipment on their side of the border.

As stated before Ukraine should have any given rights to eliminate threats to Ukraine even when the threat is placed in Russia.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Gonna be interesting to se how Russia will response to these attack on their equipment on their side of the border.

As stated before Ukraine should have any given rights to eliminate threats to Ukraine even when the threat is placed in Russia.

Markus

As I stated before Ukraine doesn’t need Europes approval or permission. Ukraine has been launching strikes into Russia long before your politicians suddenly hopped on the bandwagon and started granting them permission.

“Gonna be interesting” How so? Because if it’s western weapons you think that should be used then stop talking about giving permission and send Ukraine the hardware to do it. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

As I stated before Ukraine doesn’t need Europes approval or permission. Ukraine has been launching strikes into Russia long before your politicians suddenly hopped on the bandwagon and started granting them permission.

“Gonna be interesting” How so? Because if it’s western weapons you think that should be used then stop talking about giving permission and send Ukraine the hardware to do it. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.

I'm not in the position to give a green light or I would have done so long time ago.

Markus

[mapuc]

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I'm not in the position to give a green light or I would have done so long time ago.

Markus

But the green light has been given to use western weapons by every European leader on the continent. The problem is, it’s just a load of empty words, political hay, spin, smoke and mirrors. Because not one of them has given Ukraine a western weapon capable of doing what they call for.

[Skybird]

Ukraine better obeys demands that weapons give to it by third parties are used accprding to limitations declared by the donator. Whether these limitations are reasonable or not, is somethign else. But if they violate Western demands, they face the consquences of not getting weapons anymore.

Drones are no missiles are no cruise missiles. BTW. Look up the difference in capabilties. A very decisive one: a specialised missiles can penetrate hardended structures. A flying IED can not. Oil tanks at refineries are no hardened structures.

Biden's team so far signals clearly they do not want US-donated weapons being used inside Russian air space or territory, his speaker hes insisted on this oince again just short time ago. When Ukraine shot down two helicopters and 2 fighter bombers on the Russian side of the border with a Germany-donated Patriot battery, not just Berlin but also Washington immediately called Kyiv, fuming, and threatened to send no more ammunitions at all if Kyiv does that again.

I wonder what your policy is behind describing things so one-sided and simplistic, Rockstar. And just as a reminder, there are a few European states who, standardized against economic strength , GDP, popuation size, do and give incredibly much more than the US. They put others AND AMERICA to shame.

[Rockstar]

Like they I said earlier I think the reason for the U.S. stance is plausible deniability. Why? Because Ukraine is still sending drones into Russia regardless of the rhetoric and our economic and military aid to Ukraine has not stopped.

I will say this though the Ukraine drone strike on Russia’s earlier warning system was really really stupid.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Ukraine better obeys demands that weapons give to it by third parties are used accprding to limitations declared by the donator. Whether these limitations are reasonable or not, is somethign else. But if they violate Western demands, they face the consquences of not getting weapons anymore.

Drones are no missiles are no cruise missiles. BTW. Look up the difference in capabilties. A very decisive one: a specialised missiles can penetrate hardended structures. A flying IED can not. Oil tanks at refineries are no hardened structures.

Biden's team so far signals clearly they do not want US-donated weapons being used inside Russian air space or territory, his speaker hes insisted on this oince again just short time ago. When Ukraine shot down two helicopters and 2 fighter bombers on the Russian side of the border with a Germany-donated Patriot battery, not just Berlin but also Washington immediately called Kyiv, fuming, and threatened to send no more ammunitions at all if Kyiv does that again.

I wonder what your policy is behind describing things so one-sided and simplistic, Rockstar. And just as a reminder, there are a few European states who, standardized against economic strength , GDP, popuation size, do and give incredibly much more than the US. They put others AND AMERICA to shame.

I didn’t once talk smack about what financial & military aid that’s been contributed by European nations since the outbreak of the war.

What get my hackles up is all the stupid European rhetoric suddenly pops up granting permission to Ukraine to use western armaments to strike inside Russia. But then refuse to give Ukraine the tools to it. It’s nonsense and frankly divisive. Believe it or not I think the objective is keep the war between Russia and Ukraine and not spilling over into a war between NATO and Russia. Seems some are having a hard time figuring that out.

[mapuc]

This was posted on Ukraine Matters YT page

President Macron throwing in his growing (in Europe, not so much in France) political weight to support Ukraine.
In a combined press conference with Chancellor Olaf Scholz he thoroughly explained the case for why Ukraine must be able to strike targets in Russia.
He now put Chancellor Scholz in a tight spot where there is a clear way forward and from whispers it seems that consensus agreement is brewing.
Most likely it will be:
- Ukraine will be allowed to strike military targets on Russian soil
- Restriction on distance may apply rumors are speculating around 100km
- Ukraine will coordinate the strikes with allies. Most likely post factum.
- Ukraine will stop attacking perceived civilian infrastructure such as oil refineries or electrical stations. Including with Ukrainian weapons.

In my opinion the last point should not be accepted by Ukrainians.
This is good news for Ukraine and really bad for Russians.
Obviously so far this is all rumors and everything can fall through.
It is now clear that if Germany agrees most likely US will approve the agreement as well.
Thank you everyone that escalated and promoted this issue to your politicians!

Markus